Chokuto?

[Tsugio Kawakami]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANCIENT-Japanese-SA ... 3cb338a572

 

So...who makes what of this? Struck me as interesting.

[Brian]

Carlo, where are you?

Wow..looks the part to me. I guess there will be debate about how these leave Japan, and the ethics of how these are sourced..but I would be more interested in knowing if it is legit or not.

If real, I don't expect this will be available for long, someone is going to grab it.

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

Hi Tsugio.

 

Interesting......... Lets just pass this through the logic filter. Since with such things as this I confess to an extreme case of scepticism.

 

It is unlikely to be genuine. Items such as this that are genuine find a buyer on a private basis, not on a garbage dump like ebay. There are a number of Japanese collectors who would pay a significant sum for the genuine article, some that would not ask questions about the provenance. Kofun finds that do come onto the market are rare enough to attract extremely high prices, not the pathetic 'buy now' price of $2500 being asked.

Kofun finds are usually the property of the Japanese government which would mean that this sword either is a contraband item if genuine or that it came from other than a Japanese source. Incidentally, these kanto style swords were also found in Korea. :D

[Brian]

Check out the other auctions...there seem to be a number of Ethnographic ancient items, and checking some of the descriptions, I feel that there are some real items in there that are probably from an old collection.

He isn't a new dealer, and knows his stuff. No idea what to make of this.

 

Brian

[Henry Wilson]

Somebody Buy it Now!

[ububob]

I'm with Keith on this one. If it seems too good to be true...

[Tsugio Kawakami]

I know this seems too good to be true, but at first (and second, and third) glance, this does seem to be the real deal...at least, to my eyes.

 

I suppose it could have been sourced from outside of Japan, but even so, weren't a lot of these back in the day, even for Japan?

 

 

Whether Japanese, mainland Asian, private collection or contraband...I hope (should this indeed be what it seems) that someone in the know who can properly preserve this picks it up.

[Mark]

you could email the seller and ask it provinance. Is this the same seller that had some blades that were discussed before, like a Kiyomaru and/or some other big name blades? Maybe he is working with a Japanese dealer to sell items here that are not selling in Japan. hard to know.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Carlo, where are you?

 

Very limited acces to the Net in San Lazzaro degli Armeni :lol: .

 

Can't check the link, but could be a chinese sword labeled as Japanese. Easier to find these ones (either fake or originals) on the market. I'll give a look asap

[Peter Bleed]

A few years back these swords were being offered out of China - - for very reasonable prices. I am SURE this blade originated on the Continent. I think it is inconceivable that it could have come from Japan. Uncontrolled excavation of Kofun just do not happen. The trouble with these blades is that are a conservation nightmare. You pay your money and watch the blade disappear into rust bits.

Peter

[Marius]

This seller has quite a few Chinese "antiques". I suggest you read this:

 

http://reviews.ebay.com/The-Brutal-Trut ... 0005820898

 

Without a documented provenance this "Kofun" item should be treated as a Chinese "antique". It has to be said, however, that this sellers nihonto are real.

[Guido]

Some good advice, and basically he got the laws correctly. However, living in China myself, I can assure you that there are numerous ways around the mentioned legal restrictions. But sadly it is true that even at the "better" antique stores, about 90% of all items for sale are fake; more often than not this percentage is even higher. As with any any other field of collecting, you really need to know your stuff in order to not being taken advantage of. But that's old news anyhow.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Being an active auction and having no issues with this seller I'll try to give my opinion on the matter without stumpling on anybody's feet.

First, I've to say I've just got a reply from the seller to my question about possible info on the site of excavation. He states the sword comes from a "fairly old collection of NihonTo", supposed to be pre-WWII and no info on the site of excavation are available.

 

AFAIK, these weapons were extremely rare and treasured in Japan back then. The small pre-war bibliography available on such items report of just a fraction of the blades available today.

This make quiet hard to consider the option of a Japanese origin of the blade, if we consider it exported from the '10s to the late '30s, cause Japan' social and political situation.

 

But I'd rather focus on the condition of the sword. Which environment could give such a strong oxidization still allowing to preserve so well the tsuka ? Even if badly maintained after excavation and no attempt to stabilize the rust, seems that the difference in conditions between steel and organic material is too great. This could lead us to consider the possibility of an artificial aging, almost for sure not performed by the seller, maybe dating a 20 years ago in China.

 

All the contemporary swords I've seen have a blade in similar conditions with no organic material attached or a blade in better conditions with (very seldomly) organic material remains still attached, not the mix we find in the topic's blade (next two pics are from chinese swords) :

 

 

or *very seldomly* a faint mineralized copy of the silk on the bronze/steel

 

 

The texture of the topic' sword tsukaito also looks odd, very similar to the texture of modern ones :

 

 

Here a well preserved, genuine one :

 

 

And finally how it should looks like according to Japanese archeologists :

 

 

I'm aware of a (bit later) chokuto (not ring pomelled) that still have wood attached to the tang because it was laquered (a few urushi still there). Owner is a fellow forumite. But in no other cases I've seen a Japanese ring pomelled chokuto that has the tsukaito preserved.

 

This is of course no warranty the blade is not genuine, cause excavated items are hard to judge even in hand, and definitively wantn't be an accusation of any sort toward the seller that has been collaborative in replying to my questions.

[estcrh]

Another one?

 

http://www.jauce.com/view2.php?seturl=h ... j107368452

 

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

An evidence of how we should be careful in posting info on this board (when sales are involved) cause its popularity.

 

The topic's sword is now twice the original price (cause the seller saw the second one posted here?) and the seller quote the reason being this very thread.

I also wander if the suggestion of provenance has been taken from here as well. Note that my question (and seller's kind reply) is *not* reported for the sake of anybody's not registered here.

Still possibly a negligible mistake.