Suriage?

[Muki]

I believe that from what I can see the sword is suriage, am I seeing this correct? Also, why would there be three mekugi ana? The nagasa is 70.5cm.

 

Thank you in advance for the help! I must admit that even though I have been reading as much as I can that it often is difficult to apply what I read to what I see.

 

Jim

[Muki]

Full length photo... sorry for the horrible photo

[drbvac]

I believe you are correct and as you mentioned it there must be some reasons why you think so?. The squared off end on the nakago is usually indicative of one that has been cut off, as they are normally not finished that way. The 3 mekugiana are there because the sword has been shortened to allow the placement of a new tsuka. It seems to be a nice blade, and as due to the shortening it is now mumei, there is another whole discussion you can get into>> :lol:

[John A Stuart]

This blade is still fairly long and the lower mekugiana may be the originals. Tempting to call osuriage, but, may have been mumei from the beginning and thus suriage. John

[GregD]

Tough one to call unless you have it in hand--that said,from the positions of the mekugi-ana,color of the sabe,looks done a long time ago.One thing to look for is remnants of the oridginal yasurime sometimes left on a portion of the end of the nakago(left intentionally as an indicator). Another thing ill'e take the opportunity to point out-in the second pic,where the mune-machi is ,notice the core as it enters the nakago(darker,or more easily oxidized lower carbon content steel vs the higher carbon steel brighter steel on the outsides)see if you can follow how far it goes into the nakago(might also indicate cobuse construction)

Greg

[Muki]

Thank you for the answers everyone. Greg, I looked as closely as I could and I am not sure that I can pick out any yasurime on the nakago. The deep black color just seems to hide everything. There are evident file marks on the squared end of the nakago where it "may" have been cut off that are fairly easy to see. Any answer on why there would be two mekugi-ana so close together?

[Muki]

At the risk of hijacking my own thread... can anyone help me out with both information and proper terminology and just a basic explanation of the following photographs? On both sides of the blade there are many (yo?, hitatsura?) small areas that are above the hamon in the ji and shinogi-ji that are the same "color" as the tempered portion. These appear at what appears to be somewhat regular intervals along the entire length in one for or another. Some of the forms are drop shaped while others appear to be slightly elongated. With my limited of reading and studying material I am not quite sure of what I am looking at and would like to understand better what I am seeing.

 

Again, thanks!

 

Some of the areas are more subtle...

 

While other areas are not subtle at all...

[Grey Doffin]

These are called tobiyaki, which are isolated areas of hardened steel above the yakiba. There was a thread on this subject not too long ago; maybe someone who remembers it can post a link.

Grey

[Muki]

Thank you Grey. From the earlier post I had seen the tobi-yaki information but I wasnt sure if they were made at random. What was confusing to me was that on this blade it seems obvious that the tobi-yaki were evenly spread along on both sides.

 

On another note, I have found references and photos of blades by Shimada Hirosuke that are mei with the nakago in kiri-jiri form. From what I understood they were not suriage but are ubu. I am not sure about the nakago on the katana I have been asking about as there are some inconsistencies along the nakago where it appears to have been filed differently on one side more than the other and distorting the shinogi. There appears to be a change in the location machi with rougher file marks. This can be seen in the photo I already posted. The rougher file marks are because the steel was already hardened? When looking closely at the blade it is also obvious that the polishing runs right up to the forward mekugi-ana as well. Whatever was done was quite a long time ago as there is thick and consistent patina (dont know the right word for patina) covering all the work that has been done. The only exception to this is the "mune" that has been filed away to make the new mekugi-ana. In that area it is visible from the photo I have posted that the patina is not covering this area very quickly.

 

After finally getting my book written by Nakahara for Christmas I have read his section on mu-mei blades and am wondering just exactly what is the story with this particular sword.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[sanjuro]

Muki.

 

Are you suggesting this blade is possibly by Shimada Hirosuke? If so which one ? If my memory serves me correctly, there were three masters by that name in the Shimada line.

 

As to why there are two mekugi ana close together, this is not uncommon as the sword in its original pre suriage form was likely remounted more than once. Sometimes two mekugi ana even overlap slightly on older swords where remonting has necessitated a repositioning of the mekugiana. There are koto swords with several mekugi ana within a few centimetres of one another.

[Muki]

I honestly don't know enough to judge whether a sword was made by Hirosuke or any other smith in that tradition. What I found by looking around was several swords by Hirosuke that had a nakago that was kiri-jiri and appeared to be ubu.

 

One is listed here:

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/N6 ... _PUP_E.htm

 

and the other one I unfortunately deleted the link to its location. What I was searching for was not a particular smith per-se but was rather an "academic" search for me to better understand suriage in light of what I have been reading here on NMB via the SEARCH feature and by authors such as Nakahara. Basically, I am trying to determine if (and how) the blade I have is a suriage or o-suriage or just a plain faked mekugi-ana. As I said, this is purely academic and a fascinating subject for me, I am not a dealer or trader in swords or anything else.

 

My internet search about suriage led me to find Shimada school swords that had kiri-jiri nakago. I was surprised to find actually several that appeared to be ubu that had that very shape and similar to mine. Here is a picture of one such that is NBTHK certified...

 

Regards,

Jim

[David Flynn]

Check out this sword on Andrew Quirts site. Nakayama Yoshikazu Utsushi S0178

[Muki]

After reading about the process of suriage and the filing/reshaping of the nakago that occurs to be able to re-mount I took a close look at the end of the nakago. From my understanding the "normal" non-mei side will be filed down to facilitate the reshaping and this changes the shape of that sides shinogi. The filing and fitment will make that side somewhat flatter and potentially make the nakago just slightly asymmetrical. If you look at the photo and compare the "left" side which would normally be the mei side (away from wearer) you can see a more pronounced shinogi when compared to the other side. Does this mean suriage? No. Again, this is more an academic study for me and at least I found what I expected to find.

 

 

Regards,

Jim

[drbvac]

JIm:

 

As others have said really tough call without blade in hand but do you think it is or not - it seems that you are having a debate with yourself. I think it is suriage, possibly mumei originally or o-suriage and the mei gone,but ?

[Peter Bleed]

Jim,

I am new to this forum and still trying to figure out how it works. But do I understadn that you are IN Japan? Now I am quite familiar with the isolation that one can find in Japan and that a source of English comments might be comforting and useful. But I urge you to find a local sword club and bring these questions to them.

Peter

[Muki]

Yes, I am in Japan. I have been living here for over 4 years and will be staying here for another several until my wife finishes her contract. While I have many Japanese friends none of them are interested in swords, most of them think they should be in a haka somewhere and just left there. Your suggestion to find a club is a good one and I am looking into it. There is an American near me who has retired in Japan and is a 7th level Dan in Iaido and has a dojo several blocks from my house. I have spoken to him about swords before and he is very passionate about the subject as would be expected. It is my intention to look into Iaido with him in January once school starts for my kids.

 

jim