Requesting Assistance with an Identification

[David]

I'll say "thanks" in advance to anyone that might offer an opinion about the origins of my sword.

For background, I am not particularly concerned that what I have is not genuine. This sword has been in my family for over 50 years. My grandfather brought it back from Japan following the occupation. He died when I was very young, and other members of my family never learned any details about how he acquired it.

I am posting a few pictures, but will tell you a few details that may not be apparent from looking at the pics.

The Tsuba is very plain, I can see no markings on it at all, and it appears be made of iron. The Saya appears to have a 2 tone lacquered finish and steel fittings. The Ito appears to be black silk, and has the look of fabric that has been handled a lot, with an oily sheen to it. It is also frayed at the base of the handle, and the ends that were previously tucked in the Kashira have worn completely through, though the braid is still tied and intact.

The blade is very sharp, and sharpened all the way down to Habaki. There is no arsenal stamp on the tang. There are characters engraved on the tang, but the top characters appear to be obscured by significant rust. The rust is all a dark red and/or orange color. There is a Hamon on the blade, which appears to be thin and of a uniform width the whole length of the blade. I can see no Hada on the blade, but the finish is so poor I cannot be certain there isn’t one.

I know little to nothing about these swords, though as a student of military history I have enjoyed researching it. If I had to guess, I would say that it is from the war years or slightly earlier. I am very interested in hearing more informed opinions.

[jason_mazzy]

looks like it may have some nice utsuri. could we get close up pictures of the Nakago please? And of course alot more pictures of the sword.

[David]

Here is a pic of the Nakago. I know you can't see much, because I was unable to find a way to make the characters stand out. I am not familiar with the term "Utsuri".

[jason_mazzy]

Please take a soft chalk, talcum powder, or corn starch and wipe it into the mei (sqiggly lines) on the nakago. Utsuri is temper in the sword other than the mune (muneyaki) and ha (hamon) usually seen around the shinogi ji

[Grey Doffin]

Hi David,

Looks earlier than WWII to me. If you can't get a better picture of the signature try drawing what you can see and show us a picture of your drawing.

Grey

[David]

Thanks...I tried the chalk but it just fell out immediately. I will try another method. In the mean time, here are a couple more pics of the blade.

[jason_mazzy]

I can already see activity. maybe u one grandpas lotto!

[David]

How's this?

[jason_mazzy]

perfect, now you just need to wait for someone who can read kanji (IE. not me!!! LOL)

 

 

ps do not clean the tang at all. not sure what your experiance level is, but no cleaning the tang (by clean I mean scrub it with steel wool or some crap).

 

 

Have you oiled the blade lately?

[David]

Jason, I did put a light coat of oil on the blade, but I'm afraid it wasn't well cared for between the war and when I received it about 10 years ago. During those previous years it sat in an attic in the midwest United States. For the past ten years it has been in storage (in the desert) but occasinally cleaned and oiled. By cleaned I just mean the blade wiped down. I will not scrub the tang, but the rust is so thick that it actually was very difficult for me to getthe handle off.

[David]

More pictures...

[drdata]

David, welcome to the forum. You are getting good advice. Meanwhile, check out below for some good info on care:

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

 

I wish my grandfather was so endowed.

 

Regards

[David]

Harry,

 

Thanks for the welcome and the link!

[Bugyotsuji]

Looking at some old Kanji and this is Masanori or Sho-ou 将応 ...not a bad name.

[David]

Bugyotsuji...how old is "old"?

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, the characters are the old form. The name Masanori suggests Kansei 寛政. (Beginning of Shinshinto?)

[David]

Piers,

 

Forgive my ignorance, but is that an indicator of the age of the blade, or does it just suggest that the old characters were used?

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers,

 

Forgive my ignorance, but is that an indicator of the age of the blade, or does it just suggest that the old characters were used?

 

David, no, it just means that they are very hard to read! :lol: Very few people in Japan today could read these, I guess, unless they have studied Chinese calligraphy etc. I had to use my books.

 

The smith's Mei signature, however, if it is not Gimei, is an indicator of age. At the very least we can say that this sword is not older than about 1790, give or take a few years.

[Nobody]

I cannot see the first kanji. But the mei may be 東武源將應 (Tobu Minamoto no Masanori).

[Grey Doffin]

According to Hawley's Tobu Minamoto no Masanori worked in Musashi with dates of 1789-1804.

Grey

[David]

Thank you all for commenting. I am furiously reading trying to be able to keep up with the names, places and periods. Regarding the Mei being obscurred, there is a thick layer of rust abount an inch wide between the Mekugi Ana and the characters. Of course, everyone always emphasizes that you should never clean the rust off the tang so I suppose there is nothing I can do about it.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi David,

Before you try what I'm about to suggest, wait till some of the others chime in on the subject; I don't want to lead you astray.

Wrap the blade above the nakago in multiple layers of cloth so you can firmly hold it without getting your fingers on the blade or cutting yourself. Get a piece of piano key ivory or deer antler and use it to break up the loose red rust. You won't be able to get all of it and you shouldn't try to; just get what comes easily. The black patina that belongs on the nakago won't be damaged as long as you don't overdo it. You can use a toothbrush to clean off the loose particles.

More cleaning could be done but it would best be done by someone with proper training, a classically trained polisher.

OK, what do the rest of you think of this; all right for David to proceed or do you know a better way or do you suggest doing nothing?

Grey

[jason_mazzy]

Grey i thought the same thing but I thought perhaps, he should wrap the nakago for 24-48 hours with an oil soaked cloth, making sure the nakago was fully soaked with oil. That should penetrate deeper into the bad red rust and allow for it to crumble off easier and safer when he applies the ivory technique......

[David]

Grey and Jason, thank you both. I will wait and see if anyone else chimes in but that seems like a good measured approach. To be honest all of the wood on the sword is dry and brittle (including the handle), and working some of the rust off before I eventually re-assemble it will probably make the task less risky.

[David]

As requested, here are more pictures of the blade. It's tough to get good ones so hopefully these will look all right.

[David]

And a few more. If these are not the right type of pics let me know what you would like to see.

[Bugyotsuji]

David, one tip with shooting a blade (not that I know much about photography) is that you do not need to get the whole blade into every shot. One overall shot from 90 degrees to the center/centre will show the general Sugata (shape) and then, just as you have done with the Nakago, you can focus on the tip for example, and choose 'windows' of active sections if any are visible so that people can see into the workings in the blade steel. Do not try to physically create windows if they are not discernable. A polisher will do that.