Fake gunto or real?

[masahiro560]

Hi I seek advice on a gunto I am about to buy

I found it in an antique shop in a pretty good shape from what I've seen

My eyes tell me it may be a showato

 

the blade still has lots of niku, (It seems the blade itself was left untouched), from what I've seen it is a healthy blade (not tired at all) due to the amount of niku it has

It has no yokote

It has no bo-hi

I have not seen the nakago because the tsuka was *hammered on* I could not see the nakago

the tsuka was cracked all the way from the fuchi to the kashira so the mune could be seen

the rust looks as though if it wasn't faked (The rust is not active on the mune, it is of blackish color)

It also has none of the type 95 Serial numbers

I can only provide description with words so please forgive me

 

I will be starting with the mount

The tsuka is made with wood covered w/ same panel wraps (The same has a large nodule near the kashira, the same on one of the sides is starting to crack)

The tsuka has lost it's tsuka ito and is halfway through the nakago (It seems like a past owner has hammered on the tsuka)

The saya is metal w/ one ashi

the obi tori is gone

 

 

the saya itself is rusted,

The tsuba is made of copper (There is green patina in the inside edges of the tsuba) It has no holes besides the one where the nakago will go through

There are no serial numbers for the seppa

The locking mechanism of the tsuka isn't functional anymore

 

I think it is not machine made blade because the mune (Iori mune) is not straight at some points

It also as a hamon that can be seen by further examination of the blade

It is a midare hamon near the habaki and it turns into suguha or a relaxed? notare hamon midway

The blade length is 28

The Nakago length is 8 inches

 

Thank you in advance, and pardon me for the lack of pictures

-Agripino Mendoza

[Bruno]

Hi Agripino,

 

Just send photos, no need to give such a long description.

[masahiro560]

ok, I'll try to take pictures

My camera ran out of battery when I visited the gunto

I will try to take pictures

 

Agripino Mendoza

[Brian]

Some of that is making me definitely think "fake"

But we will need pics.

 

Brian

[masahiro560]

I think the tsuba may be bronze or may be copper

 

Agripino Mendoza

[Kevin]

  masahiro560 said:

I think the tsuba may be bronze or may be copper

 

But without photos we won't be able to say. Green verdigris on the tsuba doesn't indicate anything other than copper or a copper alloy. Brass develops verdigris as well, being a copper alloy. Old WW2 tsuba may patinate dark brown but that doesn't mean verdigris can't be present.

 

The tsuka has lost it's tsuka ito and is halfway through the nakago (It seems like a past owner has hammered on the tsuka)

 

Seen this innumerable times on old WW2 blades.

 

the saya itself is rusted

 

Not uncommon

 

There are no serial numbers for the seppa

 

Got a Koa Ishin downstairs like that.

 

The locking mechanism of the tsuka isn't functional anymore

 

Common.

 

Kevin

[masahiro560]

I have taken a picture of the nakago

from what I read

 

It's

 

Kanenori

Showa ju hachi nen ju ni gatsu

 

Showa 18th year (is this 1943 or 1944?) 12th month

 

Is this correct?

I don't have much information on Kanenori

 

Could the swords he forged possible be acceptable to be remounted for Iaido?

 

I am sorry for my bad english ^^"

 

Agripino Mendoza

[Kevin]

Well, if it is KAN 1929, he was born Kojima Taro in Meiji 40 (1907) and was the younger brother of Kanemichi. He studied swordsmithing at the Token Tanrensho in Seki. The Token Tanrensho was founded in 1907 by Kaneyoshi, a decendant of the koto Mino Zenjou school.

 

Kanenori went on to win First Seat at the 1941 Exhibition. He was an Rikugun Jumei Tosho (Army Certified Swordsmith) during WW2. In addition to swords made under the Army Certified Smith programme, Kanenori also made gendaito without star stamps and non-traditional swords. His work can be seen with star stamps, no stamps, sho stamps and Seki stamps.

 

Kevin

[sanjuro]

Is it just the photography or is there hardly any or a very indistinct shinogi line along the nakago?

 

As far as Iaido goes, and if this is a gunto blade, then gunto blades do not generally make for very good Iai swords, particularly for a beginner.

[masahiro560]

Hi again, I was thinking of cleaning the gunto tsuba, seppa, fuchi and kashira

I wanted to ask the opinion of some of the users if this was as bad as cleaning the nakago of the blade

 

thanks

Agripino Mendoza

[Grey Doffin]

Cleaning with warm water, mild soap, and a wash cloth is OK; the use of anything abrasive or any polish will lower the value and should be avoided.

The militaria collectors may have a different opinion, that no cleaning should be done. Anyone care to correct me?

Grey

[Brian]

I think water and soap might be ok...but with the aim only of getting rid of old oil and dirt..NOT to polish anything up. Removing the patina is BAD and will cause you to be haunted forever by the ghost of Nihonto collectors throughout the ages.

You are not buffing anything up, and any brass/copper etc that ends up shiny is a bad thing. If unsure, leave well alone.

 

Brian

[masahiro560]

I examine and look at the nakago numerous times...

and there's no stamp on it?

 

Is it normal for some seki blades to not have a stamp?

there's no showa or seki stamp at all

not the faintest

 

Is there a meaning behind a no stamp sword?

As far as I know all gunto blades that are non traditionally made have an arsenal stamp

or as far as seki blades go

A seki stamp or a showa stamp

 

=/ Can the forum members help me on this one?

The blade is mounted in an officer's gunto,

After I cleaned with mild soap I can say the fittings are brass

The Saya color is the green variety with wood liner

 

Agripino Mendoza

[drdata]

Need pics of the blade, to include tip and complete tang.

 

No stamp may mean:

 

1. Traditional (dubious for this example)

2. Non-traditional made before stamping started

3) Non traditional, had a stamp that was removed

4. A Chinese fake (afraid may be the case here as the nakago/tang does seem crude)

 

Only better pics can differentiate.

[David Flynn]

There is a good chance this is a traditional nihonto. Kanenori made both, gendaito and showato. Not always the case, but sometimes a two character signature means traditional.

[sanjuro]

Theres an even better chance this is a traditional fake!

I am in mind here of the fact that the most prolific Chinese fakes on ebay are of gunto.

 

The nakago is crude, there are no yasuri mei to be seen on the nakago, and there is an absence of a clear shinogi line on the nakago. The signature seems contrived and stilted. Mind you, the one picture we have is rather poor. In the absence of more and better pics of the blade in question we are only playing a guessing game in which any or all of us could be wrong.

[David Flynn]

I believe you're wrong Keith. Check John Sloughs book

.

[sanjuro]

David.

 

It wouldnt be the first time if I was wrong believe me. :D If I am, then its good news for Mr Mendoza and there is an upside to my mistake. I dont like seeing people ripped off with fake nihonto, so in a way I hope I am wrong. More pics would still be helpful though.

[cabowen]

I think this a real, WWII blade....it is just in very poor condition....

[masahiro560]

The Seppa, tsuba, fuchi, kashira all showed a serial number after I cleaned a little bit

1012

 

Pics to come

The Yasurimei is still intact but hard to capture because of the white powder I applied to make the mei visible, so I can only think that the nakago was untouched)

There seems to be a hada but I'm not sure

the Hamon is visible but faded

 

It is indeed in very poor condition ):

unoiled

no cosmoline

Mune of the nakago exposed to the outside world due to the cracked tsuka

The blade being touched by the shop keeper

The blade being drawn with the edge down

 

The history of this sword as was told to me was that the antique collector bought it from the United States @.@

other than that

I didn't buy this from ebay but from a known antique collector in my country

(I don't trust ebay for anything except same)

(He was an antique collector more than anything,

Gladly I got this one before he had the chance to "replace" the blade which he did with another perfectly intact gunto koshirae )

 

 

In my opinion though

since this was made and finished on the month of december

In the showa era wouldn't that be the month of the "Tenno Tanjobi" or "Tenchosetsu"

I could only think of the fact that certain blades are forged in the traditional way to honor the emperor's birthday

IMO

 

Pics to follow

 

Agripino Mendoza

[Guido]

  masahiro560 said:

In my opinion though

since this was made and finished on the month of december

In the showa era wouldn't that be the month of the "Tenno Tanjobi" or "Tenchosetsu"

I could only think of the fact that certain blades are forged in the traditional way to honor the emperor's birthday

IMO

Shôwa Tennô's birthday was April 29'th; the present emperor's birthday is December 23'rd.

If a sword is forged for a special occasion it's usually mentioned on the Nakago.

[masahiro560]

ah, my bad, I mistaked the date he ascended to the throne for his b-day

 

Agripino Mendoza

[Clive Sinclaire]

I have a blade by this Kanenori ( I was given it!) and I am sure this is genuine work by him as the style of caligraphy is quite distinctive even if the overall condition is poor.

Clive Sinclaire

[masahiro560]

Hi all

I've posted the pictures on my photobucket account

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk43 ... 007/Gunto/

 

Please have a look at them and see if it's a showato or a gendaito

I think there's a straight grain hada but I'm not sure

I've tried taking pictures of the yasurimei I think I've captured them in some of the pics

I think I've also captured the hamon in one or two of those pictures

 

Thank you

[jason_mazzy]

 

I thought I saw a couple forging lines in 2 of the pictures, but that blade is beat up, and without a window you can not know what is under that rust and tarnish on the damn thing. The nakago looks like it is covered in firescale or slime, though I am sure it isn't. Bob Benson among others Would be able to open an inch or 2 up for you. I think Louis Skeebo is on the board and he may be able to help.

 

If you choose not to get a window:

This is not my suggestion to anyone just a possible cleaning method that can work on a dieing and decaying sword, so don't hang me. I in no way endorse doing anything non traditional to a blade, just offering a way to stop the blade from rotting more:

 

 

You could take a mild soap and water and washcloth and clean the blade. Then Dry it completely. then take some windex to it to lift any residue and crap, then wd-40 the hell out of it to penetrate down past the top rust. then have it wrapped it in soft cloths completely soaked it in wd-40 for 24 hours, respraye and flip it for another 24 hours, then take a clean wd 40 cloth and wipe the blade down gently and alot of old crud should come off. After words you may be able to see alot more of the blade.

 

My suggestion is to let someone more knowledgable see it and window it if you want to keep it. But you have to stop that rust, and I know that wrapping it in oil soaked cloths has been mentioned on this site before as a remedy.

[loiner1965]

http://www.artswords.com/a_nice_imperial_japanese_gunto_mounted_katana_011208.htm

 

here is one

[masahiro560]

I'll try the method above, anybody else who might endorse this method?

A window would be great, can anyone help me regarding this process?

 

Thanks alot! :D :D :D :D

btw... to anyone's eyes...

Is there any indicator at all that this blade would be worth a polish?

I may use it for iai -original intention-

[loiner1965]

  masahiro560 said:

I'll try the method above, anybody else who might endorse this method?

A window would be great, can anyone help me regarding this process?

 

Thanks alot! :D :D :D :D

btw... to anyone's eyes...

Is there any indicator at all that this blade would be worth a polish?

I may use it for iai -original intention-

unfortunately they isnt.....i had a beautiful 16th century kiyomitsu polished which wasnt bad but i wanted to see more....in the polish we saw a couple of umeganes which remained intacted throughtout the foundation polish but pulled out during the final polish....shame really as to the collector it is worthless now but i still treasure it....you have to ask yourself is it worth it .

personally i would polish it as i am not in it for profit but i just love seeing them in their glory.

[Jamie]

The best way to know if it will polish is to send to a known Japanese trained polisher. Bob Benson is a good suggestion. He will tell you if it will polish or not. Don't use an amateur though, IMO.