new nihonto

[Eric H]

I could hold during last DTI a Kiyomaro, studying is seeing the nie which is his trade mark

a reminder (pic Amon)

 

Eric

[xxlotus8xx]

Oh come on! That's not a real picture. It is obviously photoshop'd!

Just kidding so spare me the scolding

The picture is stunning. Really. It as actually my goal to acquire a (Nihonto) katana with o-kissaki tip as this. So I am saving and reading and studying..

While there is no doubt that a blade in good polish will give you much more to study and admire I still feel it's just a piece of the overall bigger picture. But an important piece at that.

[jason_mazzy]

I aspire to own the "Go" on the Nihonto.ca page. pray I win the lotto!

[Jean]

Hi Erich, this was not this one, it was a tanto, but I held and study also the katana with o kissaki which was part of the DTI exhibition and belongs to a daisho

[David Flynn]

I haven't entered into this discussion till now. :D All swords(nihonto) are worth studying. Whether they are in polish or out. What may be learned from an out of polish sword is, how one may pick a diamond in the rough. Of course, studying polished swords, is definately the way to go for learning all the attributes we desire in a sword. I personally believe though, any sword held in the hand is a lesson.

[reinhard]

All swords(nihonto) are worth studying. Whether they are in polish or out. What may be learned from an out of polish sword is, how one may pick a diamond in the rough. I personally believe though, any sword held in the hand is a lesson.

 

Welcome to field one.

 

That's one of the strange sides of the internet. Although its memory seems to be beyond limits, most people don't seem to care about messages from yesterday.

 

reinhard

[Lee Bray]

...but I held and study also the katana with o kissaki which was part of the DTI exhibition and belongs to a daisho

 

You got to hold that one?

I saw them behind the glass in the side room and thought they were locked away from all.

That Kiyomaro daisho was the highlight of the show for me, even viewed from behind glass.

[reinhard]

Dai and Sho have two different owners by now. Both of them high-end dealers in Japan.

 

reinhard

[sanjuro]

David.

Just to take up your point. Given that there were Kamakura styles copied in the Momoyama period, Nambokucho styles copied in the Edo period and all of the above are being copied today, all by excellent tosho who can duplicate sugata, as well as all features of older blades including the hada and mei or lack thereof, then the only differentiation between these and the real thing is arguably the steel and its features (Including the hamon). That aspect of a blade is mostly hidden to the eye when a blade is tired and out of polish. What chance has an inexperienced collector got of finding a 'diamond in the rough'? Or what can he learn from a tired out of polish sword apart from the fact that it is tired and out of polish. All the important stuff has been reduced to points of speculation by the reduced condition of the blade.

The fact is that as an illustrative point, I speculate that if most collectors were presented with an out of polish and tired masamune blade or muramasa blade (both highly characteristic of their maker), they would not be able to pick what it was or who had made it with any degree of certainty. (Actually there are quite a number who could not do this even with a polished perfect blade unless it had NBTHK papers). Diamonds in the rough are still found it is true, but not by inexperienced collectors. Those who find such blades are vastly experienced and knowledgeable. They gained their experience and knowledge by handling and sometimes owning countless blades in good condition by renowned tosho from many schools and periods. Diamonds in the rough do exist but they are hidden in a mountain of ice.

[xxlotus8xx]

Diamonds in the rough are still found it is true, but not by inexperienced collectors.

 

So exactly how many years of study must one have to find a diamond in the rough?

[sanjuro]

Truly, I dont know... Its a matter not just of time but of study coupled with a wide exposure to a variety of styles and blades in general. Not easy experience to get. :D Generally though, most (if any) of us will never find one. Better (and in the long run cheaper) to go buy a diamond than search in a mountain of ice for one. We do however hope........ The human condition and the optimism of nihonto collectors is a strange and wondrous thing. :D

 

I Might point out also that quite apart from the time, the knowledge and experience required, finding a 'diamond in the rough' is also a matter of opportunity. Knowing where to look as well as what to look for.

[Eric H]

this was not this one, it was a tanto, but I held and study also the katana with o kissaki which was part of the DTI exhibition and belongs to a daisho

Hi Jean,

I know... I tried to point to Kiyomaro's characteristics you accentuated in your comment... using John Amons pic mirror-inverted.

 

Eric

[Grey Doffin]

Ray asked,

So exactly how many years of study must one have to find a diamond in the rough?

Anyone, no matter how inexperienced, can find a diamond in the rough. Experienced and knowledgeable collectors will realize what they have and proceed accordingly (polish, papers). Inexperienced collectors are the source of diamonds in the rough.

Grey

[sanjuro]

Grey.

 

Anyone, no matter how inexperienced, can find a diamond in the rough.

 

This is probably true, but does the inexperienced collector know when he has found one? Having one and knowing you have one is vastly different.

 

Inexperienced collectors are the source of diamonds in the rough.

 

Not questioning your opinions here, rather getting a bit of clarification. Would this not be more true from the point of view of a dealer? Experienced collectors dont often buy directly from inexperienced collectors, or do they?

I buy and sell so infrequently now that when I do buy its more often from a dealer that is well known to me. He sources the blades I request he looks for. I do however buy from experienced collectors on occasion.

[cabowen]

There is a great "tradition" among many old time collectors in the US of "helping" the inexperienced by relieving them of their "tired junk".....

 

In truth, there are mainly two kinds of collectors in the West: the inexperienced, and the less inexperienced. There are few people who genuinely know with certainty when they have found something exceptional....

 

Grey and Keith are both right: it is usually the inexperience collector who finds the diamond and the less inexperienced collector, recognizing potential, who ends up with it...Or else it gets sent to a hack amateur polisher because the inexperienced collector hasn't the money or experience to properly care for the blade and it gets butchered....

[b.hennick]

I have two diamonds - juyo token blades. I bought them both as diamonds!

One was puchased on ebay, polished, papered and then received juyo papers.

The other was purchased from a well known collector who did not know what he had. His area of specialization was centered on different blades. That blade also was polished, papered and then papered to receive juyo papers. Both of these diamonds were found by knowledgeable people who bought them from less knowledgeable people. I was lucky that they had the knowledge to find the raw stone and turn it into a diamond.

So to answer your question yes it is possible.

In my own case I have found good blades by lesser smiths than the ones above and had them restored and papered. None of my finds have earned juyo papers.

[xxlotus8xx]

Ray asked,

So exactly how many years of study must one have to find a diamond in the rough?

 

Anyone, no matter how inexperienced, can find a diamond in the rough. Experienced and knowledgeable collectors will realize what they have and proceed accordingly (polish, papers). Inexperienced collectors are the source of diamonds in the rough.

Grey

 

Hi Grey.

This was my point and the question I presented to Keith was somewhat sarcastic as I found his reply kind of presumptous. But thats OK. I'm sure he isn't so bad in person.

 

But what I am also reading is that there is a predator/prey thing going on whereas experienced collectors will prey on inexperienced collectors. Now granted I fall in the latter catagory. But in matters where I am expert such as guitars and I was appoached by an inexperienced collector I would not prey but encourage to recognize what he has.

I know that the majority of the NMB members do just that. And god bless them as I am sure they have detured certain disaster on a very old blade I own.

But to you inexperienced collectors be wary of wolves in sheeps clothing!

[b.hennick]

I think that you got things wrong. In the case of the ebay sword the purchaser was the high bidder. He took a chance - good signature on a blade not in polish. He put up the money for polish - took the risks in submitting to shinsa twice. He received the rewards. I was happy to buy at the asking price.

In the second case, the blade was on a table at a sword show. Anyone could have recognized the diamond in the rough. Again the purchaser did the work - polish, papers etc. Both the finders of diamonds not only found but put time and money into their finds..

The finding is a result of years of hard work, money spent on books, trips and work.

A beginner may find a diamond but as a rough stone he may not know what he has. At a club meeting today several people brought swords to me to look at and offer an opinion on. The quality was not very high. Some time there will be a diamond in the rough and I will tell them that. Again some clubs are more cutthroat than others. I am fortunate to belong to a couple of great sharing clubs - the JCCC Token Kai in Toronto Ontario and the Rochester Sword Study Group (Muto Kai) in Rochester New York.

Diamond hunters need senior collectors who will give encouragement and honest opinion. I was lucky to have those people help me (and continue to help me) and I offer help to others.

[reinhard]

There is a great "tradition" among many old time collectors in the US of "helping" the inexperienced by relieving them of their "tired junk".....

 

This "tradition" is/was not limited to the US. Anyway I see a problem in this statement and any future discussion about "diamonds in the rough" on NMB in general.

 

99.9% of the "tired junk" is actually....tired junk. Nursing false hopes is not exactly what this board is in need for. A katana found on eBay, saiba, with a miserable gimei in the wrong place, stored in a rattling assembly of lousy fittings should be accepted for what it is: tired junk. Nothing to learn from. Bad mistake. A lesson for the future.

Telling people they might be sitting on a hidden treasure is not exactly helpful in a spot like this. They should get fair advice here, but making them defend their trash against all well-meant advice is not exactly helpful.

 

BTW Chris, you are wrong by classifying "most Western collectors" into "inexperienced" and "less-inexperienced". Who are you to tell anyway? In the West it is the same as in Japan by now. There are knowing, "experienced" collectors /dealers and there are ignorants and there are many people in between.

 

reinhard

[jason_mazzy]

This "tradition" is/was not limited to the US. Anyway I see a problem in this statement and any future discussion about "diamonds in the rough" on NMB in general.

 

99.9% of the "tired junk" is actually....tired junk. Nursing false hopes is not exactly what this board is in need for. A katana found on eBay, saiba, with a miserable gimei in the wrong place, stored in a rattling assembly of lousy fittings should be accepted for what it is: tired junk. Nothing to learn from. Bad mistake. A lesson for the future.

Telling people they might be sitting on a hidden treasure is not exactly helpful in a spot like this. They should get fair advice here, but making them defend their trash against all well-meant advice is not exactly helpful.

 

BTW Chris, you are wrong by classifying "most Western collectors" into "inexperienced" and "less-inexperienced". Who are you to tell anyway? In the West it is the same as in Japan by now. There are knowing, "experienced" collectors /dealers and there are ignorants and there are many people in between.

 

reinhard

 

 

I think he was reffering to people who seen a diamond in the rough being "helpful" (sacrcasticly) and relieveing the less knowledgable person of an actual good blade. reffering mostly to dishonets dealings. That is how I read the post anyways.

[reinhard]

I think he was reffering to people who seen a diamond in the rough being "helpful" (sacrcasticly) and relieveing the less knowledgable person of an actual good blade. reffering mostly to dishonets dealings. That is how I read the post anyways.

 

Don't worry. I got his point. I wonder if anybody will get mine.

 

reinhard

[Lee Bray]

Diamonds...

 

I bought a mumei tanto last year from a guy in the states which, when it arrived, was not nearly as good as it looked in the photos.

And the guys photos were not great.

But it was a good price and the koshirae looked to be worth the asking price.

 

My experienced mentor saw the blade and thought the same as me, nothing special.

It eventually made its way to Japan for polish and papers and when the Japanese agent saw it, he got very excited and started saying 'Juyo...this blade will go juyo...'

His polisher was in his shop and agreed with the Juyo call.

They believed it to be by Sekishu Naotsuna, one of the Masamune Jutetsu.

 

It passed Hozon as a Hoki blade but failed Juyo.

 

Being an inexperienced collector, this taught me to never count your chickens until they're hatched, grown and sat in your home with a cup of tea and their feet up.

If you're actively looking for a diamond....be prepared to put the hours in and don't be surprised if you haven't found one after 30 years of looking.

[cabowen]

There is a great "tradition" among many old time collectors in the US of "helping" the inexperienced by relieving them of their "tired junk".....

 

99.9% of the "tired junk" is actually....tired junk. Nursing false hopes is not exactly what this board is in need for. A katana found on eBay, saiba, with a miserable gimei in the wrong place, stored in a rattling assembly of lousy fittings should be accepted for what it is: tired junk. Nothing to learn from. Bad mistake. A lesson for the future.

Telling people they might be sitting on a hidden treasure is not exactly helpful in a spot like this. They should get fair advice here, but making them defend their trash against all well-meant advice is not exactly helpful.

 

Not sure where this is coming from....I agree the more experienced should be giving fair advice. My comment was that this is often not given, rather the more experienced often take advantage of the inexperienced when a good sword is found....

 

BTW Chris, you are wrong by classifying "most Western collectors" into "inexperienced" and "less-inexperienced". Who are you to tell anyway? In the West it is the same as in Japan by now. There are knowing, "experienced" collectors /dealers and there are ignorants and there are many people in between.

 

reinhard

 

How many Western collectors have spent any meaningful time studying swords in Japan with experts, not just a few weeks here and there? How many can correctly identify even half the blades at a kantei kai? How many can read enough Japanese to do without any flawed English references and use the original Japanese sources? How many have studied in hand Jubi, JuBu, and Kokuho blades, in addition to blades by most of the major Shinto and Shinshinto smiths?

 

There are surely a few who have the above experience and skills, which is why I didn't say "all"....Until someone has had the above experience and skills, they are inexperienced as far as I am concerned, regardless of how many books, swords, or years collecting they have.....

 

And the general level of knowledge in Japan among collectors and kantei students is way beyond that of those in the US. I can't speak for those elsewhere so perhaps I should have said the US and not the West.....

[reinhard]

How many Western collectors have spent any meaningful time studying swords in Japan with experts, not just a few weeks here and there? How many can correctly identify even half the blades at a kantei kai? How many can read enough Japanese to do without any flawed English references and use the original Japanese sources? How many have studied in hand Jubi, JuBu, and Kokuho blades, in addition to blades by most of the major Shinto and Shinshinto smiths?

 

 

I did and I can, and I'm not the only one.

 

reinhard

[cabowen]

How many Western collectors have spent any meaningful time studying swords in Japan with experts, not just a few weeks here and there? How many can correctly identify even half the blades at a kantei kai? How many can read enough Japanese to do without any flawed English references and use the original Japanese sources? How many have studied in hand Jubi, JuBu, and Kokuho blades, in addition to blades by most of the major Shinto and Shinshinto smiths?

 

 

I did and I can, and I'm not the only one.

 

reinhard

 

Congratulations, you are one of the few....

 

In the US I could count the number on one hand and probably not use all my fingers....

[David Flynn]

Ah! the air of superiority. Nothing else smells like it.

[sanjuro]

Can we avoid the confrontational stuff? This has been a good thread and may well continue as such. If I can Ignore being labelled a stirrer and my posts being called presumptuous by an adolescent, then so can everyone else rise above these minor annoyances.

[loui]

Wow, this thread went from jumping on poor Werner to castrating all western collectors and dealers, well done Chris. Is there not a cat you should be strangling some where?

 

I give this thread 5 more posts until lockdown, just short of someone offering their papering and restoration services.

 

Cheers from Vegas!

[cabowen]

Wow, this thread went from jumping on poor Werner to castrating all western collectors and dealers, well done Chris. Is there not a cat you should be strangling some where?

 

I give this thread 5 more posts until lockdown, just short of someone offering their papering and restoration services.

 

Cheers from Vegas!

 

Not sure how you get "castrating all western collectors and dealers"....I have seen plenty of newbies get shafted, that is a fact, but I did not say all western collectors and dealers are to blame. There are always good and bad.

 

Do you disagree that few in the US have the kind of experience I mentioned above? That isn't a value judgment, just another fact. For most people, this is a hobby, nothing wrong with that. Not everyone has the opportunity to study in Japan or the time to devout to study. No criticism meant or implied. If pointing out the reality of the situation "smells like superiority", I assure you, that was not my intent....

[Guido]

Superiority? The only thing is smell is envy ..