new nihonto

[Marius]

Jock,

 

I think Keith was well-meaning in his post. He has only commented on your decision to buy this particular sword. And he has remarked that your original post has yielded some interesting aspects concerning polishing.

 

You are absolutely right - not many people can afford $$$$$ blades. But you can always save up (as I do, in fact) for a polished blade with no serious problems. Five $200 junk blades can buy you one polished wakizashi - it may not be a masterpiece, but it will be a decent sword to enjoy and to learn from. Buying unpolished blades will keep you from appreciating what nihonto really is.

 

Hope you are not offended by my post

[Guido]

its original purpose = cut off enemies heads

Yup, that's what it's all about, and that's why we are all on NMB! Although, come to think of it, a Walmart machete will do the same for considerably less money.

 

My dream is to own a Learjet, but sadly I lack the funds for one. I therefore fold paper planes in my leisure time and am happy with them - they all fulfill their purpose and fly. But then again, my rather low IQ barely enables me to peel a banana.

[chrisf]

Well said Jock,I'm 100% with you on that and would add that the other thing that your detractors fail to understand is that by buying swords like this you are constantly learning about swords and how to look at them.I dislike the sniffy attitude that some purist collectors show and can remember buying a Koa Isshin at an auction in my early days when I had no idea of the maker but judged it by shape,hamon and how the nakago was beautifully filed and signed.It looked a good sword but I was deemed to be a retard by the looks I got from the 'experts'.Equally I bought a sword with two small but quite obvious fukure with a jammed on semi-civilian wartime hilt but I reckoned it was an old blade and it had a fabulous,big iron tsuba with waterwheels in gold,silver and bronze(?) overlay,sword was 28" and at home after 30 minutes gentle persuasion -' Higo Kyushu Dotanuki Hyobu' was revealed.I sold it to a pal of mine who took it to a well known militaria dealer for 'polishing' and yes, it was ruined.

Also there are a lot of negative views based on the images,I have just bought a Horikawa Kunitake gendaito and the hada looks like that in the images but has never been touched and in my view it looks like a good old blade that someone has maybe messed with because it's not 'signed'.Keep buying them Jock and keep on believing in the gunto mounted Masamune!

[Marius]

your detractors fail to understand is that by buying swords like this you are constantly learning about swords and how to look at them.

Sorry, but you will not learn much from a sword which is not polished.

[sanjuro]

Hmmmmm. some people are very touchy..... I merely questioned your motive in buying a sword that was in the main an unknown quantity in the first place. This particularly so if you were trying to spend as wisely as possible. No sniffy attitude intended. Neither am I by any stretch of the imagination a purist collector. Like most on this board I save up to buy the swords I buy, since I dont have access to vast amounts of money. $10,000 is as much to me as it is to you!

Perhaps a less precious and long suffering attitude on your part may have left room for deeper thought into why I asked the question in the first place.

[nagamaki - Franco]

the other thing that your detractors fail to understand is that by buying swords like this you are constantly learning about swords and how to look at them.

 

The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. — Albert Einstein

[sanjuro]

I can appreciate the desire to own a nihonto. God knows how I can appreciate the desire. However, the possession of a Japanese sword, any Japanese sword for the sake of possession alone is not collecting and is not likely to teach you anything about quality nihonto. It amazes me that new collectors buy one low end sword after another thinking they are collecting swords and learning from each blade they buy. In effect, if they simply resisted the burning desire to buy cheap swords and saved their money to buy one decent and not necessarily expensive sword, that one sword alone would teach them more about nihonto than fifty rubbish out of polish, and poor quality blades. It isnt rocket science..... Yet we see so many new and enthusiastic nihontophiles burning money on one rubbish blade after another and then saying they cannot afford a better quality nihonto.

[Brian]

The "sniffy attitude that some purist collectors show" is a helpful reminder never to settle for mediocrity. That is all.

Even if you can't afford top blades, doesn't mean you shouldn't aspire to own one or look at them in an effort to improve your knowledge.

Face it...many of those just accumulating low end swordare purely in it for the "Samurai vibe" True?

Nothing wrong with that..if you admit it, and tailor your collecting towards that. But please don't hold it against others if they try and advise people how to get out of the accumulator's trap and into true collecting and studying.

I am sick of people thinking they are being persecuted if they aren't encouraged to think bigger and better. Deal with it. You are on a forum dedicated to a high end art, and on a Picasso forum, don't expect people to encourage you to collect copies or water damaged prints. We will advise you, you choose whether to follow the advice or not. Have a thicker skin, and deal with it. That is all.

And just in case people think I am some "purist elitist" too...bear in mind that I have very few swords, no big names, none in polish, none with papers. So I am completely entry level too. But I know where I want to get to, and oneday when I have some money...I will get there. I don't think badly of people who try assist me in that regard.

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Please tell me, what is the purpose of the NMB, the purpose of thousands of posts, thousands of images, if it is all to be ignored, why, because someone believes that somehow and in some way they are going to discover buried treasure where there is none. By chasing dead end swords (and fittings), collectors are ruining their eyes, so when a diamond in the rough does present itself, they miss it, and if you haven't noticed or are not aware, over the years pretty much the same bunch of people are the ones that consistently come up with treasures over, and over again, even sometimes right under the noses of dealers and other collectors, and this is not by chance, and these collectors don't do it by buying and studying junk swords!

[xxlotus8xx]

I see sanjuro is stirring up the hornets nest again...

I can relate to both sides of this debate though with the opinion of it's your money, do what you want with it. But if you post pics of your newly acquired Nihonto here be prepared for opinions and possibly judgment. Some honest, some snobbish. But you you have the option of taking the good and ignoring the bad. It's all part of the learning process.

And whoever said you can't study a blade without it being in polish is wrong. Lot's of blade characteristics can be studied without a newly polished blade.

[Marius]

And whoever said you can't study a blade without it being in polish is wrong. Lot's of blade characteristics can be studied without a newly polished blade.

 

I said this, although you do misquote me.

 

Would you care to elaborate? What can you possibly study on a blade out of polish (I did not say "newly polished"), besides the sugata and the state of the nakagao (if it has not been ruined, that is)?

[Jamie]

Ray-I don't think they are singling anyone out, or being sniffy, or snooty. I believe they are trying to lead us down the right path to studying art swords. Everyone I have dealt with here-and I have spoken to a few personally have been all about furthering the study, and preserving these blades.

 

 

I am a fairly new collector. I have followed most of the advice I have been given regarding buying quality pieces,In polish. And I am a fixer upper by nature. But I have resisted that and bought good pieces I can study. I have learned FAR more from the three I have that are in good polish. One in old polish, one new. I have learned far more from these two blades than ANY I looked at out of-or in less than good -polish.

[xxlotus8xx]

 

I said this, although you do misquote me.

 

Would you care to elaborate? What can you possibly study on a blade out of polish (I did not say "newly polished"), besides the sugata and the state of the nakagao (if it has not been ruined, that is)?

 

Lots!

1) Nagako shape, length and condition

2) Nagasa and sori measurements.

3) Sugata

4) Koshire that are part of the whole sword.

5) Kitae

6) Hada (Depending on how out of polish)

 

Sorry about the misquote. Next time I'll hit the "quote" button.

[xxlotus8xx]

Ray-I don't think they are singling anyone out, or being sniffy, or snooty. I believe they are trying to lead us down the right path to studying art swords. Everyone I have dealt with here-and I have spoken to a few personally have been all about furthering the study, and preserving these blades.

 

 

I am a fairly new collector. I have followed most of the advice I have been given regarding buying quality pieces,In polish. And I am a fixer upper by nature. But I have resisted that and bought good pieces I can study. I have learned FAR more from the three I have that are in good polish. One in old polish, one new. I have learned far more from these two blades than ANY I looked at out of-or in less than good -polish.

 

Hi Jamie,

I never indicated that anyone was being singled out and if you actually read what I wrote you kind of echo'd my point. But like any profession or scholarly study there are those that are humble and those who have huge ego's. That's just the way it is.

And I have also received the best advise from this board than perhaps any other on the entire Internet. So anyways don't want to get off topic for the thread.

[drdata]

Interesting turn.

 

I find myself on both sides. My will and aspirations far out reach my financial means(was that Schopenhauer that just rolled over? ), yet I'm not getting any younger and its hard to study only books.

 

I too am a "fixer upper" and fancied the idea of projects pieces with low entry that later involved a polish. Does seem that with the yen/dollar as it is one is wiser to wait a bit and obtain in polish works, else prepare for a big hit down the road.

 

This can take the fun out of an item as its not what you really wanted, and to make it so seems foolish, at least in this market. Given you could invest the polish money on another in-polish sword and likely come out ahead.

 

But then, you feel guilty about neglecting the projects sword.

 

Its almost like adopting a sick puppy because its cheap at the time. Not sure how this analogy will work with this worldly audience.

[Jean]

IMHO, everything has its limits,

 

I have seen quite a few blades and find it difficult to study a blade in full polish, so a blade out of polish ....

 

Taking measurements is not studying a blade, it can lead or mislead you in a kantei that's all. Studying is another thing. Thanks to Reinhard, I could hold during last DTI a Kiyomaro, studying is seeing the nie which is his trade mark

 

When one says out of polish it is different from old polish, it excludes studying hada and hamon, hataraki, which is what studying is all about, except in kantei books nobody talks about measurements when studying a blade ... just read the Connoisseur book of Japanese swords then you will know what studying Nihonto is all about

 

Koshirae, most of the time the koshirae does not belong to the blade and anyway does not give a clue to blade origin and generally on out of polish blades they are wrecks

 

Nagasa and sori won't lead you to anything if the blade was o suriage (It could be very misleading as a shin shinto one made to look as a Koto one)

 

When the blade is shortened you have less chance to study anything from the nakago.

 

Question : In your opinion, why do NBTHK experts accept only blades in good polish for shinsa?

 

Now, collecting out of polish blade or totally ruined blades does not matter, we are in a free world, as long as one don't say that it is for studying.

 

Project blades : I hate this adjective project because it covers too many different concepts

 

I am against the project blades (for myself) for 2 reasons:

 

1- I have to wait for the polisher to get it, meaning that I have the money ready to spend on polishing but there seems to be other things to invest in, but it is also a gamble then I begin to be wishy washy about the polish and the blade remains at the bottom of a cupboard

2 - because I have found out it is less costly to buy a fully polished blade

[xxlotus8xx]

IMHO, everything has its limits,

 

I have seen quite a few blades and find it difficult to study a blade in full polish, so a blade out of polish ....

 

Taking measurements is not studying a blade, it can lead or mislead you in a kantei that's all. Studying is another thing. Thanks to Reinhard, I could hold during last DTI a Kiyomaro, studying is seeing the nie which is his trade mark

 

When one says out of polish it is different from old polish, it excludes studying hada and hamon, hataraki, which is what studying is all about, except in kantei books nobody talks about measurements when studying a blade ... just read the Connoisseur book of Japanese swords then you will know what studying Nihonto is all about

 

Koshirae, most of the time the koshirae does not belong to the blade and anyway does not give a clue to blade origin and generally on out of polish blades they are wrecks

 

Nagasa and sori won't lead you to anything if the blade was o suriage (It could be very misleading as a shin shinto one maade to look as a Koto one)

 

When the blade is shortened you have less chance to study anything from the nakago.

 

Question : In your opinion, why do NBTHK experts accept only blades in good polish for shinsa?

 

Now, collecting out of polish blade or totally ruined blades does not matter, we are in a free world, as long as they don't say that it is for studying.

 

Project blades : I hate this adjective project because it covers too many different concepts

 

I am against the project blades (for myself) for 2 reasons:

 

1- I have too wait for the polisher to get it, meaning that I have the money ready to spend on polishing but there seems to be other things to invest in, but it is also a gamble then I begin to be wishy washy about the polish and the blade remains at the bottom of a cupboard

2 - because I have found out it is less costly to buy a fully polished blade

 

I fear once again I am misunderstood. And while I can surely see your points I do believe that all the for mentioned aspects of a blade are studied. OK I'll take back the koshire part. But everything else?? come on.

In using the Piccaso example one does just not study the brush strokes. It's the process and end result that are taken in and admired. Or hated....Or debated.

IMO if every OOP or ruined blade was just shrugged aside we would not nearly have as much understanding as we do currently. And are not some of these "fixer uppers" turn out exceptional after a new polish? I feel that blades are are classified as ruined are still; or should be studied but probably should not be displayed or brought to show and tell.

[chrisf]

Franco,the use of Einstein's hackneyed quote would be amusing if relevant but you have missed the point entirely.

Cheap swords are a valuable study resource even if in poor condition,sugata,nakago,yasurimei,hamon,hada are all aspects that can be studied in detail in conjunction with good reference books;there is absolutely no substitute for 'hands on' study.

Brian,you seem a bit confused.You quoted my post to warn others against mediocrity but then go on to describe your own collection which frankly,sounds mediocre.

Japanese swords may be high end art in your opinion which is a very elitist view,I try to keep a more open mind and accept that all art forms have merit at many levels and try to maintain a Western perspective as far as study and research are concerned and not allow myself to become bound up in the quasi-Japanese way that many sword-pseuds have adopted.

ps;are you the Brian from 'Family Guy'?

[John A Stuart]

Why do we get bogged down in this every once in a while? Study what you want. Collect what you want. The Japanese sword is elite by definition. If one wants to troll bottom end swords and believe that a firm education can be achieved by such, how can we say it isn't possible? After all Newton was just a dreamer in an orchard and Einstein was just a patent office bureaucrat, their enlightenment must have been a God-given flash rather than hard work and study. Stop it, you can't learn about anything studying pale imitations of great works. This does not mean you have to beggar yourself buying or travelling, spending gobs of money, but, it does mean that you must sacrifice time and energy learning by books and whatever shows, exhibitions you can and above all LISTENING. No-one specific is this directed to and not meant to elicit name calling or sarcasm. John

[Lee Bray]

Chrisf - your level of study and comprehension is apparent. Enjoy your cheap, rusty swords.

Brian's level is also apparent and that's why he doesn't appreciate cheap, rusty swords. He wants something better.

 

If you don't aspire to that, fine, but have the decency not to denigrate those that do.

After all, you want respect for the low end of the craft, why not the high end?

Making jokes about a persons character is low.

[Jean]

Just to clarify, my post was only about polish and studying. You can find at very low price on Aoi Art for example some blades in very good polish which will give you hours of studying, for what does remain once some one had taken a blade measuremants? the shape? I love it for what it is but it has nothing to do with studying.

 

In Picasso paintings, the over all impression of a painting is fantastic. But what will be the result if you look at a Picasso painting smeared?

[jason_mazzy]

Chrisf - your level of study and comprehension is apparent. Enjoy your cheap, rusty swords.

Brian's level is also apparent and that's why he doesn't appreciate cheap, rusty swords. He wants something better.

 

If you don't aspire to that, fine, but have the decency not to denigrate those that do.

After all, you want respect for the low end of the craft, why not the high end?

Making jokes about a persons character is low.

 

I feel as though perhaps what is meant is that, there is no appreciation for some nihonto just because they are out of polish, or were aquired cheaply through ebay instead of a reliable seller. And instead of people answering the question posted, ie. "what does this mei say" you get, "that sword sux", "you suck", "you collect crap" as replies. Those are neither constructive or supportive comments toward the novice or historical collector and push people farther away from collecting the good stuff or asking appropriate questions.

[sanjuro]

Jason.

 

This is a forum..... If you ask for opinions then be prepared for the answers. Some of them will be negative although I dont think I have ever seen one that says 'you suck' or is directed at someone on a personal level. I doubt that Brian would condone such behaviour anyway.

If what you want is handholding and only positive, nicey nice comments and responses then perhaps your psychologist would be a better avenue of support.

Here however, advice is honest advice and you may not always like the advice you are given. Suck it up princess, and take from it the knowledge it contains.

[Brian]

How many times do we have to cover the same issue?

If you (meaning anyone out there, not anyone in particular) aren't willing to take honest opinions of your swords, then don't post them here. Simple. And if all you want is translations over and over again with no other opinions or discussion..then you are just using the generocity of the members here, and are on the wrong forum. You post it, we will discuss it. That's why this is a discussion forum.

What is pointed out on one person's sword helps hundreds of other novice readers out there. Membership here is only a small fraction of who reads this. With an average of 3 million hits a month, we are now reaching a far bigger audience than just those few who want to trawl for hidden treasure covered in rust.

Those who feel they are persecuted for what they buy should look at what they constantly purchase. Not once or twice, but constantly.

We are not putting anyone off collecting.

Listen very carefully here:

I don't care if you prefer to collect relics, mediocre swords or flaws. You may collect whatever you like. You can even post them here for opinions. But don't expect people to encourage you to continue down that road, because the hundreds of others reading those comments deserve better advice. They deserve to be shown real art, and the way to study it. Perhaps 5% of them will go on to be serious and advanced collectors, and those guys are the future of sword preservation. Not the ones defending their eBay purchases.

I don't think some of you guys get it yet. Collect that stuff if you like. Just as long as you know what you collect, acknowledge where it lies as far as art goes, admit where your real collecting level is, and don't try and fool yourself.

Chris (who seems to ignore the real point) pointed out that my own collection is pretty mediocre, and that is true. But the difference is that i don't post the stuff here all day and then get hurt when it isn't juyo level. I know I am still a novice, but at least I don't polish my own swords and continue to want better for myself. I have been to Japan, have an extensive library and even have a few blades that might be really good once polished oneday. But that can wait..and I am comfortable in my progress. What has also happened in the meantime is that I grew out of all the junk on eBay, and am able to recognise relics very quickly even when dirt cheap. It comes with education and not being satisfied with mediocrity.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Jason,

 

you are mistaking appreciation for study and, no, it is not a question of price

[werner]

Hmmmmm. some people are very touchy..... I merely questioned your motive in buying a sword that was in the main an unknown quantity in the first place. This particularly so if you were trying to spend as wisely as possible. No sniffy attitude intended. Neither am I by any stretch of the imagination a purist collector. Like most on this board I save up to buy the swords I buy, since I dont have access to vast amounts of money. $10,000 is as much to me as it is to you!

Perhaps a less precious and long suffering attitude on your part may have left room for deeper thought into why I asked the question in the first place.

 

Hi Keith (and others),

 

My sincere apology if I read your comment in the wrong way / misinterpreted it. I do appreciate any critical comment on this board not only on my blades but on any blade....3 years ago I would have gladly bought any cheap chinese repro sword and hung it proudly over my desk....fact is that this board (actually the members here) have, without a miss, always given good advise etc. No way I would miss out on constructive criticism - this would be equal to a decision to stick with very limited knowledge. I have on many occasions read (with appreciations) your comments and admired the well of knowledge you and other members on this site have. And also appreciated the fact that members here are more than just helpful and very willing to educate others.

 

I started collecting knives from the age of 7 - moved on to 'old knives' by the time I was 12 - at 19 I started to collect custom made knives - did this for 21 years and then approx 3 years ago I came across a nihonto and shortly after that found this site.....in my opinion I went through 4-5 stages on my journey....everyone of these leading to were I'm now.....maybe my money limits and interest in cheap crap is just another stage - at the end of the tunnel I can see myself in my nihonto dehumitified room with 70 perfect blades....and still believe that rubbish blades educated me (based on members comments) be it only to get a rubbish blade and being told why it is rubbish and storing this knowledge....I think that there might be a time for everything - for some of us it was better to obtain a tired blades and mess around with it (based on a lack of knowledge) than getting a treasure and making a real mess of it...

 

It certainly has its place to "frighten People concerning messing up nihontos" but there is also a time when one has to see that being a novice doesn't mean that they "know" more like "willing to learn"

 

Well....just my 2 pence - and again: Thanks for all the education, advise, help and last not least criticism that I obtained from all you members....it certainly change me from a person who would have made a mess of any nihonto to somebody who is very careful about it. I just recently sold a koto katana to somebody on this site only because I couldn't afford a polish - in the past I would have taken this poor little thing in my workshop and tried whatever my brain would have come up with....result would have been = destruction.

 

Regards,

 

Jock

[paulb]

Jock,

Just an intetresting aside from your post. You mention your "end of tunnel" ambition of 70 perfect blades. I am impressed with your ambition (albeit said tongue in cheek) but I think the comment highlights another stage of the collecting process.

When I started I worried that I only had one or three or five swords and bought everything I could find and afford that was remotely Japanese. Later as I learned I became more selective. A second concern entered the process, the more swords you hold in the collection the greater your responsibility for caring for them. I would hate to reach the point where looking after x number of blades became an unwelcome task rather than a pleasure and the resposibility of care detracted from the enjoyment.

Having gone full circle I am now at the point where I think I could quite happily have a collection of one or two swords (they would have to be the right ones) and a comprehensive library. As it stands my collection has half the number of swords today that it did 4 years ago, they are better examples and are altogether a more manageable number to care for.

Sorry to go off at a tangent but you mentioned stagers of collecting and it triggered the response

regards

[moss]

Thanks Paul,

 

For in my opinion, putting this into perspective.

 

 

 

I was guilty, like Jock of chasing after a diamond in the rough, or maybe even a piece of quartz would do in a pinch.

Yes I collected gunto ,no crime in that and it definately has its place in the history of the sword.

But I know for a fact there is little to learn from an out of polish blade ,or a poorly made showato for that matter and it is bloody hard to move it on once you cross over to the dark side

Jock ,no harm or malice dirrected to you in any way shape or form but 70 blades in a climate controlled room......hmmmmm.Ha Ha

A handful of average blades in polish will teach you more in 5 minutes than you will learn in a lifetime of fixer uppers'.

 

I can't speak for others but I can for myself,I have moved from showato into nihonto ,parts painless others painfull.

Do yourself a favour find a great mentor on the board(They are there) but you need to listen to their advise,or of course you can run contrary, as some do ,and then squeal like a stuck pig when consensus dictates your opinions are actually wrong.

 

Jock ,You are very obtuse in answering questions and like to create a fable around your purchases ,as is another ebaynista,there are a thousand and two eyes watching and EBAY is actually" Every Bloke And Yourself" not crookbay.Crookbay is where the shite is sold.

 

Thanks all for putting up with my 2.5 cents worth.

Moss

 

Edited due half a bottle of brandy and of course low IQ

[Amon]

Hi!

 

After being one of thoose who bought all swords I could get I changed my way of collecting after seeing this picture (among other things).

I think it was Ted Tenold or Keith Lahrman who brought this picture (attached below) up on another forum asking us what we saw...

I remember seeing this beautiful blade but couldn't tell much about the details etc.

 

After this "lecture" I sold almost all my blades except one, bought and still buying plenty of books. This day I own two blades which are in full polish and gives me lots to study. I really enjoy these two blades which I never did with all blades I had before cause they were out of polish, had rough hada, faint hamon etc.

Sure a person could find a diamond in the rough but then you have to know what you looking for.

 

 

 

Kind regards,

[moss]

And not a moment of regret.

 

Moss