the worth of old NBTHK papers

[Marius]

Dear All,

 

I used to own a sword, a Shitahara school wakizashi by Hiroshige. It had 1979 Tokubetsu Kicho papers from the NBTHK.

 

I have recently sold it and the buyer (a pal of mine), upon closer examination, has come to the conclusion that the blade is in fact osuriage. He has found what looks like the original mekugi ana close to the tip of the nakago, and I agreed, it looked quite like a plugged hole. I have offered him to take the sword back, but he did like it that way, speculating if this could be a wakizashi cut down from a naginata and not gimei. I have insisted it is osuriage gimei with crap origami, but he thinks the signature might still be original.

 

What do you think - anything in the papers that would support his theory?

 

Attached are some pics.

[sanjuro]

Marius.

 

On what basis does he speculate this is a cut down or reshaped naginata? There are none of the normal naginata hi present. The turn back at the kissaki has not been lost due to the reshaping etc. It appears more to be exactly what it is, a wakizashi regardless of being suriage or not. I'm Just curious as to his reasoning here. :D

[paulb]

Dear Mariusz,

Old NBTHK papers have gone through a rough time of late. This has been especially increased by a number of "blue papers" appearing over the past few years which have proven (or at least beleived to be)to be fakes. While it is true that the NBTHK went through a bad time in the early 80s and had their reputation rocked, I think it is a mistake to beleive all older papers are wrong or fakes.

It is likely that anybody forging papers would focus on top end attribution (hence the blue previously mentioned rather than the more common white or green papers) Also on smiths that would make the effort of faking worthwhile. With great respect to this blade which looks perfectly acceptable, I dont think it falls in to this catagory.

It is possible that, based on later research, old attributions may be proven to be wrong but this is not a deliberate attempt to deceive.

 

With regard to the sword I can see why you might think it is a plugged hole, but based on the image I am not absolutely convinced. Having said that I am not sure what else could cause this effect. I have never seen a hole plugged with iron before and would assume it is extremely difficult to do.

Personal opinion I think the sword looks ok. I dont think it is naginata-naoshi but made in this form which was not uncommon. as mentioned above if it were a naginata I would not expect to see the boshi turn back. Without looking at the paper in detail and comparing to known authentic examples I am unable to comment on the authenticity of it but my feeling is that it also is ok.

Not sure if any of this helps but wish you well with your further research.

Regards

Paul

[Eric H]

  mariuszk said:

I have insisted it is osuriage gimei with crap origami, but he thinks the signature might still be orginal.

This Wakizashi is unmodified and in original shape with Tokubetsu Kicho origami...shoshin. The added pic is from a Katana by a Hiroshige of the Shitahara group.

 

Eric

[Marius]

  sanjuro said:

.

On what basis does he speculate this is a cut down or reshaped naginata? There are none of the normal naginata hi present. The turn back at the kissaki has not been lost due to the reshaping etc. It appears more to be exactly what it is, a wakizashi regardless of being suriage or not. I'm Just curious as to his reasoning here. :D

 

I think the reasoning is as follows:

1. Not all naginata had naginata hi (eg. nagamaki). I

2. In naginata with a torii zori the kaeri might have been preserved because the boshi was left intact (actually, I used to have such a naginata naoshi, a sue-Soshu cut down to a rather broad wakizashi)

 

otherwise there is no reason to see it as a former naginata...

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Mariusz,

I don't think this is a plugged ana; the diameter of the area you highlight (area of raised corrosion on one side and recessed on the other) is larger than that of a mekugi-ana. Don't know what caused this (mounted in a tsuka with an extra ana, perhaps, which allowed moisture inside?) but it doesn't look to be a plug to me.

Grey

[sanjuro]

May I venture that this theory of it being a cut down naginata may spring more from hope than from credible evidence? I own a comparable Shimada blade equally papered although mumei, which echoes quite closely this blade shape, and which was, as has been mentioned quite common. Why then would one cut down a naginata or nagamaki to this blade form when wakizashi of this type were not uncommon?

 

The apparent filling in the nakago reminds me of a sword I owned some time ago where there was a similar apparent repair that went right through the nakago at the nakago jiri. When I sent the sword for polishing the togishi remarked that it was a slag blister which had been repaired during the formation of the blade. Not in a position that compromised the sword in any way but which the tosho would have wished to remove for appearance sake. The way it was done was similar to this sword under discussion. The entire fault chiseled out or otherwise removed and new steel inserted into the nakago prior to the tempering and quenching of the blade. I thought I might mention this as a possibility in this case.

[loui]

Ok, lets say there was a hole there for argument sake, then it was plugged, so what? So you have discovered a plugged hole???? For a couple of collectors to determine that those NBTHK papers are "crap" means absolutely nothing, I suggest you leave that determination to the experts - the people who already papered your sword.

 

Louis

[sanjuro]

For what my opinion may be worth, I think at the end of the day, what we have here is merely discussion and opinion. It isnt and shouldn't be a trial of the origami, regardless of our personal views on the accuracy of the shinsa team's determination. Shinsa teams are fallible since they are made up of men, albeit very knowledgable men, but men none the less. They are not always right, but they are right infinately more often than not. Having said that however, a healthy scepticism is not altogether misplaced.

If genuine doubt exists, one could always resubmit this sword for alternative shinsa if it is not a recent paper, just to be sure of the attribution, but is that really necessary? The present owner for whatever reason is happy with his sword the way it is and for what he thinks it is. The past owner agrees to some extent with his theories which may be at odds with the shinsa attribution. All we are doing here is testing and scrutinising his theory for the sake of discussion. :D

[Marius]

  Louis Skebo said:

Ok, lets say there was a hole there for argument sake, then it was plugged, so what? So you have discovered a plugged hole???? For a couple of collectors to determine that those NBTHK papers are "crap" means absolutely nothing, I suggest you leave that determination to the experts - the people who already papered your sword.

 

Louis,

 

as a person with great experience in collecting shoshin which turn out to be gimei I am rather skeptical, that is all.

 

I am always very very happy to be proved wrong

[cabowen]

It would seem that a few rotten apples have spoiled the bunch....Undoubtedly there were some questionable calls and outright fakes of some of the old papers but unfortunately it seems that these days, because of this, all old NBTHK papers have become suspect and lost credibility in the main.

 

Have never seen a mekugi ana filled with steel. Was not unknown to have a second mekugi ana in wakizashi...I too doubt this is a contrivance....

[loui]

I wouldn't say that "all" old NBTHK papers have lost credibility in the main, atleast not in my opinion, papers in general can be suspect though when you really boil right down to it and when human opinion is being used. Would be handy for "other" papering bodies if that were the case though wouldn't it????

 

I have seen metal plugged mekugi ana, most often done where one hole is drilled partially into the other, where we see copper used as well.

 

Ah, shoshin gimei, gotta love those, just keep submitting until you get the attribution you like!

 

Louis

[Eric H]

It seems that people have seen for the first time a Wakizashi in shobu zukuri ...and speculation on the validity of the origami is just ridiculous, as well as the belief that all old papers are false. It is proven that doubtful papers have been issued by NBTHK when it comes to „big“ names...but this Shitahara Hiroshige is a „Nobody“, ie not worth to be faked, because the only motif of forgery is monetary gain.

 

To mistrust old papers is unjustifiable but advised when big names are involved and the blade characteristics do not correspond.

 

Eric

[nagamaki - Franco]

Depending upon the nakago to kantei a sword is working backwards and will in all likelihood only succeed in getting one lost. As far as suspect NBTHK papers, they were late 70's early 80's, and even so, each case must be evalutated individually. Which puts us back to square one, learning kantei.

[cabowen]

  Louis Skebo said:

I wouldn't say that "all" old NBTHK papers have lost credibility in the main, atleast not in my opinion, papers in general can be suspect though when you really boil right down to it and when human opinion is being used. Would be handy for "other" papering bodies if that were the case though wouldn't it????

 

Most of the collectors and dealers I have spoken with in Japan give little to no credibility to any old NBTHK papers (unless Juyo). Most of the collectors in the West I have spoken with seem to feel pretty much the same way. Granted, my sample size is small but nearly all I have talked with seems to say the same thing- its got papers? What kind? Tokubetsu Kicho? Ohh, those.....I see swords for sale on the Japanese auction sites all the time with these old papers and they seem, in general, to sit without bids despite apparently reasonable prices. Those with modern NBTHK papers always command more, comparatively.

 

When the NBTHK made the switch, it wasn't as handy for other organizations as it was for the NBTHK.....

[loui]

Well said Eric.

 

Like it or not out of all the papers out there the NBTHK papers sell swords, any dealer will tell you that, NTHK NPO and NTHK will as well but they don't do it as well as NBTHK especially for bigger named blades. Fujishiro are very good as well.

[sanjuro]

I must confess to considerable ignorance in the matter of the questionable NBTHK papers. Whatever occurred did so before I was a serious collector and therefore more interested in Shinsa, Kantei and papered swords. It has never been explained to me as to what exactly occurred and I suspect many of our newer members are in equal if not greater ignorance than I. Would someone indulge me please and summarise exactly what happened and the basis for an apparent lack of faith in the old NBTHK origami. Has it to do with the old Honami origami that were found to be spurious, or is that quite another matter from an earlier period?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Keith, there was Japanese mafia shenanigans with papers being issued, generally for important smiths.

[sanjuro]

Oh I see..... I had not thought the Yakusa might be involved. It doesn't take much imagination to fill in the gaps. Thanks Franco

[cabowen]

The NBTHK used to issue their lower lever papers through branch offices in different parts of the country as well as at their main office in Tokyo. As the story goes, there were yakuza in the kansai area involved in the issuance of fraudulent kanteisho. As a result, the NBTHK quit issuing kanteisho at branch offices and changed the system to its present form in response.

[Marius]

  sanjuro said:

On what basis does he speculate this is a cut down or reshaped naginata? There are none of the normal naginata hi present. The turn back at the kissaki has not been lost due to the reshaping etc. It appears more to be exactly what it is, a wakizashi regardless of being suriage or not.

 

Keith,

 

please have a look at this;

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sword16.html

[David Flynn]

I was also led to believe, that some Juyo papers issued in the 80s are also spurious.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Naginata naoshi sugata is specified on NBTHK origami, i don't know if it's the same with old ones.

[cabowen]

  David Flynn said:

I was also led to believe, that some Juyo papers issued in the 80s are also spurious.

 

 

I have never heard this but anything is possible. It is an easy matter though to determine the authenticity of Juyo papers.....

[sanjuro]

Hi Marius.

 

Yes, I was reminded of the Usagiya blade by another member also. One would also not suspect the Usagiya blade of being a cut down naginata. In both cases a very difficult call to make unless you know it to be fact. One also expects a suriage job to have a square cut nakago. This I note is not present on the Shitahara sword, thus giving no visual clue as to the suriage. I find that faintly dishonest although not without parallel elsewhere.

For my money however, its a pity they (Usagiya) didnt just leave it as it was and polish the original blade. Perhaps some fatal fault that otherwise would have ruined the blade was removed by the reshaping and thereby elevated its worth. I can see no reason in either the case other than this to ruin an otherwise good naginata blade particularly from that period. The world is full of wakizashi blades, some good, most either mediocre or just plain horrible. A good naginata blade on the other hand is comparatively hard to find.

 

(Edited for grammar)

[Pete Klein]

Chris is right. If you are interested in any Juyo or TB Juyo sword, koshirae or fitting(s) they are referenced in the published Juyo Zufu for that year. If in doubt get/borrow a copy of the zufu and see if it's in there. The Juyo origami also comes with a picture of the page. If the seller doesn't have that then get the zufu first. Let's face it, if you're going to spend $20,000+ on something a couple hundred dollars is chump's change.

[O koumori]

"there was Japanese mafia shenanigans with papers being issued, generally for important smiths"

 

So why is this all we hear about these presumably falsified papers? Are there any written acounts, articles, or analyses of these interesting events (in English)?

 

Dan K.

[nagamaki - Franco]

  O koumori said:

Are there any written acounts, articles, or analyses of these interesting events (in English)?

 

Seem to recall reading an article about these papers sometime ago. My thoughts are that it would probably have been in the JSS/US, but that could be incorrect. You might try searching Grey Doffin's JSL index at the top of the page.

[Eric H]

  O koumori said:

So why is this all we hear about these presumably falsified papers?

Example of a doubtful NBTHK Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho paper dated 1974. This Hankei Katana in fine polish with minor surface scratches was on ebay with a starting price of $ 5,000 and remained unsold.

 

This however does in no way imply the Muramasa paper to be doubtful... as many times cited : characteristics of the steel, hamon, shape of blade and nakago must correspond to the smith‘s workmanship.

 

Eric

[Lee Bray]

I have green Tokubetsu kicho papers from the 1960's for a Shigetaka blade I have.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8593

 

The sword is signed 6th gen Shigetaka and dated 1663, which is when the nidai Shigetaka worked, so I'm fairly certain my papers are meaningless.