gold menuki

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, I have been going through some stuff I got years ago and these menuki have sat in a corner where I relegated them to obscurity because I didn't think much of them. I wonder now if this type of construction is more common then I thought. It seems to me that because they appear to be metal foil pressed on a mold and then filled with with a resin and organic filler they are some kind of poorer version of menuki. The foil is somewhat thicker than that found on habaki. They have some age as is seen by the gold rust and they are dirty, I don't want to be too rough in cleaning, fragile. Anyone seen this before? John

[Curran]

John,

 

Any images of the backsides?

[John A Stuart]

Sure. You will see how thin the gold sheet is and the filler quite well. John

[drbvac]

John:

 

Any chance the "filler" is a positive model from an impression that had the gold foil worked on to it>??

[John A Stuart]

That could be so. I know resin was used to make menuki less likely to collapse and have seen it often, but, those were on pieces that had been molded and then carved with some meat to the metal work. These do not show carving just molding, maybe in the way you say. John

[Curran]

You weren't kidding about the resin.

My advice is under no circumstances should you try and remove that. Many years ago Jim Gilbert once advised me how to do so, and I removed very similar from the back of some waki goto menuki.

I regretted doing so.

 

Just shooting from the hip, I suspect these were made with a negative mold. Maybe finished thereafter.

People like Peter K and Rich T know more about interpreting the finish of the edges on the menuki. From what I can see without being able to expand the photos, it looks like the edge (lip) of the menuki are fairly complete and complete all the way around.

 

Maybe they or Boris can date them better.

[John A Stuart]

Curran, a surprise!! They were bought being waki-Goto, but, un-attributed. I was suspect because of how they were made and thought 'copy'. These are scans and not hi-rez. They are a male and female dragon, the male with the tama. Indeed they are finished right to the edges. I shan't touch them, too scared. Negative mold, sounds even more plausible. John

[Curran]

John,

 

At this point, better photos for the Goto gurus might yield more knowledge.

 

I nervously circle the Goto mountain, but haven't attempted to climb it until I have considerably more time and opportunity to read the books and speak/see a vast number of goto pieces. It was either Rich T or someone from the KTK that showed photos a few years of getting to observe "hands on" a long line of near identical works by many generations of Goto: that would have been worth a pretty penny to me.

Difficulty for me is the time to get to Japan.

[Sergio Bastos]

John, I can´t help you much, but the Menuki are very nice and beautiful!!

 

Sergio

[Ted Tenold]

Hi John,

 

I've seen this type of manufacture before, and owned a couple sets. The gold always struck me as having good color and they exhibited kinsabe. This makes sense to me as the gold would work onto the form better if it retained maximum ductility. They also all had very good details and even some accented details carved on the surface. My guess is that they weren't really low quality pieces (they are gold after all) rather than more cost efficient way for someone to have gold menuki. I would absolutely encourage leaving the filler. I saw a nice set of shishi menuki made this way that had the material removed. Sadly, this resulted in one that had been crushed irrepairably. I've never pursued finding out what school may have made works like these, but they display skill in the ability to make positive forms that rendered such nice form and detail.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ted, I almost chucked them. Thanks Sergio. I was almost convinced they were some type of non-sword ornament adapted for menuki. Never seen this before. I just removed them yesterday from a tsuka that had been sitting around awhile. The fuchigashira that was on it are the Goto Denjo set I had trouble reading in the translation forum. They, maybe, being copies too. John

[jason_mazzy]

I also have a pair that came off an old tsuka, the theme is many tsubas

[nagamaki - Franco]

They have some age as is seen by the gold rust and they are dirty

 

gold rust?

 

also, what is the green seen on these menuki in the images?

[sanjuro]

Franco.

 

Strange as it sounds gold does oxidise, though not exactly rust as such. There is no actual damage to the surface of the gold, similar to the blackening of pure silver over time. The gold 'rust' referred to is a pinkish discolouration in the low spots on the motif. Generally speaking, the darker the 'rust' the older the piece, and incidentally the purer the gold.

 

At a guess the green stuff is plain old crud. A mixture of skin oils and sweat most probably. :D

[John A Stuart]

Hi Franco, Gold rust- kinsabe. They were covered in lots of smutz including a green fibre in spots. John

[John A Stuart]

I just had to get to the bottom of these. Yesterday I had scratched the edge and soft gold freshly shining appeared in the scratch. Today I wondered what those green fibres may be. I got a teasing needle and removed some of this fibre. There was minute perforations underneath which show as old copper metal underneath. This leads me to believe that the gold is plate over copper and the green fibre was dust that had wicked the verdigris into itself. Not as precious as I previously thought. Oh well. On a second note as I trolled through Ricecracker's site in the menuki section I noticed a set of menuki made of gold foil. Two rings, not sure of the filler in those, maybe metal, copper? I think these shall be relgated to the back of the drawer again. John