Swords and Length

[Kurogasa55]

Nice set Brandon.

Thanks for sharing the pics.

 

No problem. I thought it was a nice set too. I am glad you enjoyed it.

[Guido]

There was no "kanejaku" in the Edo and earlier eras according to this.....

I'm not a huge fan of Wikipedia, and hardly ever go there for reliable information; I usually rely on the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten and similar encyclopedia.

Anyhow, the Tôkyô Geijutsu Daigaku has records of "Kanejaku" used as far back as October 1'st, 905.

I believe the correct pronunciation is "josun"....

Jôsun is certainly a valid alternative reading, but Teisun somehow sounds more "natural" to me. But so far I wasn't able to find this Kanji combination in any of my dictionaries, and therefore can't be sure.

[cabowen]

Well, in any case, there seems to have been quite a few different shaku, which I suppose is only to be expected in Japan...

 

I have often heard people say "jo sun" when talking about swords of the preferred length, but don't recall ever hearing "tei sun"....maybe one of our Japanese members can comment.

[John A Stuart]

定 Is most often read as 'tei' as far as I can see. In simple compound words like

定住 ていじゅう

定説 ていせつ

and complex compound words like

定形郵便物 ていけいゆうびんぶつ

定期刊行物 ていきかんこうぶつ

However it can be read 'jo' rarely like

定規 じょうぎ

Just to be complete I did find one word read 'sada'

定め さだめ

Far and above 'tei' though. I have noticed sometimes words read naturally one way when used for particular subjects read alternatively as in the usage of some words for nihonto and associated fields. Either way may be correct, maybe? John

[Toryu2020]

Eric et al -

Hate to be-labour a point, but perhaps I wasn't very clear in my post. What you say is true about lengths and if we are only looking at the blade with no other evidence then I would likely call it a wakizashi myself.

 

However, if this pairing is original to some date before 1868, then the dai is a katana. It wears the clothes of a katana. Hardly think that a "Chonin" marching about Edo with this pair on would get very far before being stopped. I doubt even more that the authorities would have measured his blade and said "very sorry sir, wakizashi that, carry on!" "just two wakizashi fellas pay im no mind!"

 

I have tremendous respect for our sword clubs and museum catalogers but they are working in different times with different criteria. If the state of this pair convincingly shows that it was put together and worn in pre-restoration days by a member of the samurai class then I say that trumps any artificial designation based solely on length. If it was dressed as a katana, worn as a katana, then i'd lay odds that the samurai who wore it considered it a katana and not "my wakizashi in a daisho koshirae..."

 

It is both at the same time and like so many things in this nihonto world I think we need to be flexible in our thinking when considering such things...

 

-tom (Jo-sun sounds more natural to me) helm

[leo]

Dear Brandon,

 

I cannot see from your picture if the daito has an ubu nakago or if it maybe was shortened and originally had been a Katana by official terms.

 

Even if your blade is ubu, generally the following scenario might not have been uncommon:

 

The daito receives a deep nick in the ha near the hamachi, maybe during combat, which cannot be removed by a new polish!

Now the wearer is not able to order a new blade neither is his employer. Also the damaged blade is held in high esteem by its owner, maybe is an ancestral sword. The new length is much too long to make it a wakizashi, but only 1/2 inch shorter than a Katana. So the cheapest and most practical way is to shorten the blade lowering the hamachi until the nick has disappeared.

 

So he was able to keep on wearing and using his daisho as it was required from a man of samurai rank.

 

I love to see things from a more practical view!!

 

Regards, Martin

[Guido]

It is both at the same time and like so many things in this nihonto world I think we need to be flexible in our thinking when considering such things...

That sums it up nicely. I'm reasonably sure that people would have referred to it as Katana back in the day (because it functioned as such), not withstanding the fact that the precise classification is Wakizashi.

The original and correct term for "screwdriver" is "screwturner" (Scraubenzieher/Schraubendreher in German), but who uses it in common language?

-tom (Jo-sun sounds more natural to me) helm

Right now my wife has a few friends over for coffee/tea, all native Japanese speakers, including her. I showed them the Kanji, and the verdict was 4:1 in favor of Teisun, but I also know from past experiences that this doesn't prove anything. At least they got semething else to discuss now besides Gucci handbags ... :lol:

[Jean]

Guido,

 

Beware they were not talking about Vuitton

[Guido]

Beware they were not talking about Vuitton

My apologies to Marc's daughter, I'll try to steer them into the "right" direction ...

[Jean]

I'll tell him

[Eric H]

I think an important aspect when talking about sword lengths is the relationship to its wearer, the Samurai... his body height and arm‘s length.

I don‘t know how representative this research is, it says that the estimated human height in Edo period roughly was 155-158 cm for Men and 143-146 cm for Women.

Eric

 

提供館

 

東京都江戸東京博物館　図書室 （4110007）

管理番号

 

edo2004-07

事例作成日

 

2004年07月01日

 

登録日時

 

2005年01月26日 15時08分

 

最終更新日時

 

2010年10月05日 13時07分

 

質 問

 

江戸時代の男女の平均身長はどれくらいか。

回 答

 

　江戸時代の人の身長は、墓地などから発掘された人骨（おもに大腿骨）の長さから推定されています。推定身長を出すための計算式や、サンプルの採り方などで若干の差はありますが、おおむね“男性155～158cm”“女性143～146cm”の範囲内におさまるようです。

 

(1)『骨は語る 将軍・大名家の人々(*)』（鈴木尚著 東京大学出版会 1985年 4694/1/89）には、江戸時代庶民の平均は“男性157.11cm”“女性145.62cm”とあります。

（*)徳川将軍とその正室・側室や、江戸時代の大名の推定身長なども載っています。

 

(2)『日本人のからだ』(鈴木隆雄著 朝倉書店 1996年 4911/3/96）では“男性155.09～156.49cm,女性143.03～144.77cm（江戸時代前期～後期）”。

 

(3)「江戸時代人の身長と棺の大きさ(**)」平本嘉助（『江戸時代の墓と葬制 江戸遺跡研究会第9回大会発表要旨』江戸遺跡研究会 1996年 2102/115/9）では江戸庶民の平均が“男性155～156cm,女性143～145cm（江戸時代前期～後期）”。“将軍・大名（男性）の平均が157cm”“正室・側室（女性）が145cm”で階級による大きな身長差はなかった、と推察しています。

　（**）同発表要旨を元に改稿された論文が『墓と埋葬と江戸時代』（江戸遺跡研究会編 吉川弘文館 2004年 3856/26/004）に掲載されいてます。

 

　現在の日本人の体型と比べるとだいぶ小柄だったといえますが、すべての人が小柄だったわけではなく、身長2mを越す大男もいました。文政期の看板力士“大空武左衛門”や天保期の看板力士“生月鯨太左衛門”は身の丈7尺5寸（約227cm）もあったと言われています。（『古今大相撲力士事典』（景山忠弘 小池謙一著 国書刊行会 1989年 7881/10/89）参考）

[BSA]

Eric H raises a good point. Swords were not just shortened to meet the laws of the time, but also to suit the owner. In the Edo period, these were the working tools of the day for any samurai.

 

We've all come across blades that don't quite fit their mountings, swords that would otherwise be considered wakizashi mounted as tachi for example. It comes down to context. If they are of the period, they are certainly mounted as a samurai's daisho. To the owner of the time it would have been his katana. Now, if we remove the sword from its mounts and evaluate it with no other information, that is up for debate.

 

Brandon A.

[Kurogasa55]

Dear Brandon,

 

I cannot see from your picture if the daito has an ubu nakago or if it maybe was shortened and originally had been a Katana by official terms.

 

Even if your blade is ubu, generally the following scenario might not have been uncommon:

 

The daito receives a deep nick in the ha near the hamachi, maybe during combat, which cannot be removed by a new polish!

Now the wearer is not able to order a new blade neither is his employer. Also the damaged blade is held in high esteem by its owner, maybe is an ancestral sword. The new length is much too long to make it a wakizashi, but only 1/2 inch shorter than a Katana. So the cheapest and most practical way is to shorten the blade lowering the hamachi until the nick has disappeared.

 

So he was able to keep on wearing and using his daisho as it was required from a man of samurai rank.

 

I love to see things from a more practical view!!

 

Nice point. The daito was not shortened so my guess is that it was originally made this way. But what everyone else is saying as well makes sense. If the wearer wears it as a katana then it is a katana, but when taken out of the mountings it is up for debate.

 

Regards, Martin

[Kurogasa55]

Dear Brandon,

 

I cannot see from your picture if the daito has an ubu nakago or if it maybe was shortened and originally had been a Katana by official terms.

 

Even if your blade is ubu, generally the following scenario might not have been uncommon:

 

The daito receives a deep nick in the ha near the hamachi, maybe during combat, which cannot be removed by a new polish!

Now the wearer is not able to order a new blade neither is his employer. Also the damaged blade is held in high esteem by its owner, maybe is an ancestral sword. The new length is much too long to make it a wakizashi, but only 1/2 inch shorter than a Katana. So the cheapest and most practical way is to shorten the blade lowering the hamachi until the nick has disappeared.

 

So he was able to keep on wearing and using his daisho as it was required from a man of samurai rank.

 

I love to see things from a more practical view!!

 

 

 

Nice point. The daito was not shortened so my guess is that it was originally made this way. But what everyone else is saying as well makes sense. If the wearer wears it as a katana then it is a katana, but when taken out of the mountings it is up for debate.

[cabowen]

Right now my wife has a few friends over for coffee/tea, all native Japanese speakers, including her. I showed them the Kanji, and the verdict was 4:1 in favor of Teisun, but I also know from past experiences that this doesn't prove anything. At least they got semething else to discuss now besides Gucci handbags ... :lol:

 

 

Yes, it is a sad fact that most Japanese wives are of little use when it comes to things swords....which is what my wife says about me when it comes to anything other than swords....

 

Here is an easy way to check the pronunciation: type じょうすん and 刀 into your google search. It will return several Japanese sword pages with "定寸 (じょうすん)". For example, from:

 

http://www.spacelan.ne.jp/~daiman/rekishi/shinsen02.htm:

 

comes:

 

「定寸・じょうすん」という語を時代小説などでよく見かけますが、これは標準寸法で刃渡り二尺三寸（６９.７㎝）のことです。平均的日本人の扱いやすい長さが、この寸法だといわれます。

 

Then type in ていすん and 刀 and see how many pages it returns with "定寸 (ていすん)"....

 

I think that should give you the answer....

[Toryu2020]

Remember boys,

Japanese sword collectors deliberately use odd readings for kanji just so that their wives DON'T know what the hell they are talking about...

-t

[cabowen]

Ain't that the truth.....

[Ken-Hawaii]

Fascinating thread, but as a sword-swinger myself, perhaps a more practical answer on whether the larger blade was intended as a katana is to see if two hands will even fit on the tsuka. I have several o-wakizashi in my collection, & none of them will allow me to use both hands comfortably (i.e., at least an inch or two between them). I'm 5'10" with not particularly large hands.

[Kurogasa55]

Fascinating thread, but as a sword-swinger myself, perhaps a more practical answer on whether the larger blade was intended as a katana is to see if two hands will even fit on the tsuka. I have several o-wakizashi in my collection, & none of them will allow me to use both hands comfortably (i.e., at least an inch or two between them). I'm 5'10" with not particularly large hands.

 

The tsuka has enough room for me to use two hands and i am 6'3 with large hands. Not my usual size of tsuka but it is enough to fit me.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Then by my criteria, you have a katana because it could be used as such. My three o-wakizashi have always been considered as waks as much because of tsuka length as by nagasa length.

[Guido]

I think that should give you the answer....

Taking my role as one of the resident heretics very seriously, I'm still not 100% convinced.

For instance, many (if not most) Japanese books give the reading for 良業物 as "Ryô-Wazamono" althought it correctly reads "Yoki-Wazamono".

 

I guess I'll stick with Socrates for the time being: ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα ("The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing").

 

Btw, an executive order issued in July of Shōho 正保 2 (1645) specified the maximum blade length of Katana to be 2 Shaku 8 Sun to 9 Sun (= 84.84 cm ~ 87.87 cm) and Wakizashi to be 1 Shaku 8 Sun to 9 Sun (= 54.54 cm ~ 57.57 cm). That makes me wonder if swords between 57.57 and 60.6 cm would have by law also been considered Katana back then, or was this order only meant for Daishô ...?

[cabowen]

Taking my role as one of the resident heretics very seriously, I'm still not 100% convinced.

 

As I have said, all of my Japanese sword collector and shokunin friends always pronounced it josun, all the internet references read it josun, and I could not find a single internet source that reads it teisun.........

 

Next year at the DTI why don't you ask all the dealers you speak to if they have any "teisun" katana and let us know how that goes....

[Guido]

[Brian]

Are we done with this one now?

 

Brian