Whats the difference ???

[gudis]

I have been looking at aoi arts site and some pretty nice blades on that site.

 

But I have a small question about Iai blades.

 

What's the freakin difference between a nihonto and a Iai blade ??

 

Many Iai blades are OLD so they are antiques if you see to the age. Is it maybe because it's dull ??

Aio arts site got some Iai blades that are really nice.

[paulb]

Hi Niclas,

It is a qualityand or condition issue. Either the blades offered are off a lesser quality of manufacutre, or may have faults.

As always there is an element of subjectivity in this designation. I also am guessing that these blades would not receive papers from the major organisations (opinion only)

Having said all the negatives I am assuming that these blades must alos exhibit all the qualities required for the sport.

regards

Paul

[Toryu2020]

Niclas -

Another thing to look at when considering "Iai" swords listed as such is the koshirae. The handle, scabbard and fittings are often of recent manufacture or a mixed bag of old and new. The quality being just good enough for everyday use but not the very best. Museum level restorations of antique koshirae are meant to be preserved not banged up in the dojo, "The finest blades stay in their scabbards" as it were...

-t

[cabowen]

To add a little to the discussion....

 

These days, modern smiths often make two kinds of swords: art swords, and iai-to.

 

Art swords are made with the best quality materials using their best effort. The construction is usually multi-piece and they do all they can to make the highest quality sword possible.

 

Iai-to are made with lower quality materials, often one piece contruction or simpler construction. Finishing is not on par with the art sword...There are, in other words. many short cuts taken.

 

As can be guessed, iai-to are made for use and are generally much cheaper than the art swords made by the same smith. Most iai-to are found in modern, reproduction koshirae while art swords are usually found in shirasaya or sometimes, very high quality koshirae.

 

These days many people are trying to sell iai-to as art swords. Some iai-to are in fact quite nice looking. Be careful!

 

Many times older swords which have serious flaws or other problems, like yakinaoshi, for example, are mounted and used for iai as they are no longer highly valued as collectables.

 

Hope that helps.

[tagonagy]

Chris, your assessment of Iaito seems to imply that they are inferior to art swords, which I don't think is entirely fair. Art swords and Iai/Tameshigiri swords are made to different criteria. With art swords, the beauty of the hamon, jihada and hataraki take priority. Since they are meant to be appreciated by connoisseurs, an art polish is needed to bring out the beauty of the blade. With martial arts swords, factors like length, balance, tachikzae (in the case of Iaito), and lateral strength (in the case of tameshigiri swords) are more important than the jihada, hamon, etc. A high grade art polish in a martial art sword is futile since these blades will be handled, and often scratched.

 

To draw an analogy, Art swords are like dress shoes, while Iai/Tameshigiri swords are work boots.

[cabowen]

Chris, your assessment of Iaito seems to imply that they are inferior to art swords, which I don't think is entirely fair. Art swords and Iai/Tameshigiri swords are made to different criteria. With art swords, the beauty of the hamon, jihada and hataraki take priority. Since they are meant to be appreciated by connoisseurs, an art polish is needed to bring out the beauty of the blade. With martial arts swords, factors like length, balance, tachikzae (in the case of Iaito), and lateral strength (in the case of tameshigiri swords) are more important than the jihada, hamon, etc. A high grade art polish in a martial art sword is futile since these blades will be handled, and often scratched.

 

To draw an analogy, Art swords are like dress shoes, while Iai/Tameshigiri swords are work boots.

 

 

Art swords should have everything an iai-to has, then some. An iai-to is not made to the same standards of the craft and is therefore inferior from a workmanship standpoint. They are made for use the same way kazuuchi-mono and showa-to were. They are functional, nothing more, and do not represent the highest level of the craft....

 

I think a more apt analogy would be rolex and timex......

[jason_mazzy]

would you really say rolex timex?

or closer to rolex vs omega?

 

some Iai blades seem to have alot of features just not 100% art. I think your comparison really seems to undervalue the traditional work, maybe more fitting to compare that with crappier reproductions.

[cabowen]

would you really say rolex timex?

or closer to rolex vs omega?

 

some Iai blades seem to have alot of features just not 100% art. I think your comparison really seems to undervalue the traditional work, maybe more fitting to compare that with crappier reproductions.

 

 

As I said, they are made with lower grade materials, simpler construction methods, and less craftsmanship.

 

I have several omega watches and they are a fine watch. How about patek phillipe and rolex, then?

[jason_mazzy]

only if it is a nicer one LOL

[gudis]

Ok, sorry for the long delay for me to come back to this post !!

 

BUT here is a strange thought for me...

 

The old swords made a long time ago for battle are the most expensive ones to buy as a collector, and those must have been made more like Iai sword. ?? If thats the criteria for Iai swords.

 

 

Then that would be how a REAL sword should be made, isnt it ? So these new art swords can be of less quality than a Iai sword.

 

But thats only my thought.

[paulb]

Hi Niclas,

Sorry but I think you are wrong.

True the majority of swords made in the past were for fighting and either perished during their use or have survived in a worn state. These do not, in relation to their age and when compared to other antiques, command high prices.

The highly priced art swords we seen on many dealer websites and exhibitions were made by top craftsmen using the best techniques and material. They were made slowly and were expensive when made. They have been cared for, even cherished, over many hundreds of years. While it is true many show some signs of use it is unlikely they saw anywhere near the amount of fighting the lower cost pieces did. If they had it is unlikely they would have come through so many centuries unscathed.

There is a wealth of difference between a top piece made by a recognised craftsman to order and a mass produced or semi-mass produced work.

There is room within the subject for both but no amount of debate will turn one in to the other.

regards

Paul

[bluboxer]

Hi Niclas, one thing we must think about with swords older than the 1870's is the fact they were all made from tamahagane (of course there will be a few exceptions). Today we have modern steels that are alloyed with other elements and are far from the most "simple" of steels produced in the tatara. The functional superiority of modern steel alloys vs. tamahagane is another discussion but is a factor in our choice of a "use" or practice blade vs the art sword.

 

modern smiths often make two kinds of swords: art swords, and iai-to.

It would be my guess that the iai-to are made with modern steel rather than tamahagane produced by direct reduction in the tatara. Modern steel can still be forge folded and constructed by a skilled smith that will appear to be tamahagane to all but a few.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[cabowen]

Modern iai-to made as such in Japan must, by law, be made of tamahagane, though this is difficult to enforce and most likely not always strictly adhered to.

 

As I have mentioned above, it is both lower quality materials (there are grades of tamahagane as well) and less complex, less time consuming, methods used for construction. Thus it is both materials and construction methodology that separates the art sword from the iai-to....

[gudis]

Hi all and thanks for your answers.

 

I think this is a interesting subject, because it can go just anyway