Muramasa

[Jim P]

Hi does someone have a Oshigata of a Muramasa 2nd generation Tanto to compare to this Mitsumune style Tanto by him.

Is a Mitsu-mune a characteristic of Muramasa Tanto ?

https://www.aoi-art.com/sword/sale/10425.html ? thanks.

[b.hennick]

Hello:

Here is a photo of my nidai Muramasa for comparison.

[Jim P]

Hi Barry,You are indeed a lucky man :D is it similar to this one in shape ?

[b.hennick]

Here is a picture I took of the sugata of the blade. Judge for yourself. I had a composite photo of the other side and put the two sides together so that you could see the matching hamon on both sides of the blade.

[Eric H]

All generations Muramasa’s features are same. It’s that Hamon of both sides are same shape.

 

No rule without exception

 

Eric

[micha]

Hi Jim,

 

Most of soshu blades have mitsu mune.

 

M.

[Curran]

Jim, Barry, Eric, Micha,

 

I'd like to ask some questions here if you guys can field them. My intent is purely to understand, as I have a harder time with blades than fittings. I have a particularly hard time being sure of the authenticity of signatures.... mostly with some shinto and shinshinto swords. Not sure why my brain is so Yin vs. Yang on why the ability to reliably vouch for signatures in fittings doesn't transfer over to blades. I've hesitated to ever tackle the topic of Muramasa signatures, due to the sheer number of gimei out there.

 

Q1: Are the Aoi Arts tanto and Barry's suppose to both be the same nidai signatures? If so, can you explain to me the differences in the signature? By this I mean some of the atari appear to me dramatically different. Are there several accepted verions of his signature?

 

Q2: I like Barry's tanto better. In the Aoi Arts photos, it looks like the hamon runs clean off the blade for a stretch in the middle, even the nie gone in that region, but that it has been painted for continuity. I'd heard or read that the hamon often ran off before the hamachi and that this was to be accepted in some Muramasa blades? But in the middle? Anyone else think the hamon runs off the Aoi Arts one? If I'm just "talkin crazy", it is fine to say so.

 

There is also a Muramasa up at Ginza Choshuya now.

These do seem to come in waves. At one point I would have liked to own the Muramasa house yari Darcy had. Koshirae was a dead match to a tanto koshirae I own and love, and legend of Muramasa blade in a house yari had added aesthetic appeal.

Hozon papers or not, don't know what to make of the Aoi Arts tanto.

[micha]

Dear Curran,

 

Good questions.

 

Mostly you can see it on the nakago jiri if it concerns tanto blades. I've add a picture that speeks for itselfs.

 

M.

[micha]

The difference in the signature is explained in Satô Kanzan sensei's 'Ise no Tôkô'.

 

MURA-caracter

(1) & (2) are found in signatures dated 1501

(3) & (4) are found on blades dated 1504-1521

(3) & (5) are found on blades dated 1573-1592

 

Caracter (3) is found in all periods and you should be carefull, almost all of the fakes have this caracter.

 

The tanto of Mr. Tsuruta seems to me the 5th version (i've made a layered picture, see below)

M.

[micha]

SORRY this was the MURA-caracter ofcourse.

[Jim P]

Greetings ! Curran I am with you to my untrained eye the signature looks different the one at Ginza Choshuya does not show the mei can not tell if hamon runs off the blade I will leave that call to someone with more experience it does have that polished a lot look

[micha]

MASA-caracter

 

(1) 1501-1504

(2-5) 1504-1528

(5-6) 1532-1555

(7) 1573-1592

( unclear but estimated around 1570-1573

 

In the Aoi- blade the masa carater is not very clear but I found an oshigata of the second gen. that fits almost perfect (see picture).

[micha]

I don't think there's a problem with the hamon, but it's a picture ... . I found a few oshigata's where the hamon nearly reaches the ha (not only at the hamachi).

 

Greetings Micha

[Guido]

I have no doubts about this being a genuine Nidai Muramasa. However, I'm asking myself three questions:

 

Was the blade re-polished after the TokuHo papers were issued?

Why have I hardly ever seen a Sayagaki by Mr. Tanobe without any comments on the blade? (O.k., it's a very small blade/Shirasaya, but still ...)

Why no Oshigata? (Virtually all other swords on the Aoi website have one.)

[micha]

GOOD POINT

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Why no Oshigata ?

 

blade is on consignment sale, that's could explain the lack of oshigata.

 

Is a Mitsu-mune a characteristic of Muramasa Tanto ?

 

Nidai Muramasa made Iori mune tanto as well Mitsu Mune.

[Eric H]

In the Aoi Arts photos, it looks like the hamon runs clean off the blade for a stretch in the middle, even the nie gone in that region, but that it has been painted for continuity. I'd heard or read that the hamon often ran off before the hamachi and that this was to be accepted in some Muramasa blades? But in the middle? Anyone else think the hamon runs off the Aoi Arts one?

All pictures belong to Muramasa nidai.

 

Eric

[Guido]

blade is on consignment sale, that's could explain the lack of oshigata.

Mr. Tsuruta obviously did the photos, so why no Oshigata? All the other swords on his website - consignment or not - have one as far as I can see.

 

Btw, "nice" to finally have met you in person at this year's DTI (and before that at the NBTHK/Sword Museum), even if you went to great lengths to hide your identity and didn't talk to me. :D

[micha]

Sorry I forgot picture of (6) and (7).

 

Thx Barry to let me know.

 

Micha

[Jacques]

Btw, "nice" to finally have met you in person at this year's DTI (and before that at the NBTHK/Sword Museum), even if you went to great lengths to hide your identity and didn't talk to me.

 

You should have done the first step, i was impressed by "Schwarzy"

[b.hennick]

I have been enjoying this thread. I took the opportunity to work on the images presented and to make a little summary. I could not upload a Word document so I took screen shots of the two pages and am uploading them a pictures. If you want you can print them out as a quick summary.

[Curran]

Micha and Barry,

 

Sincere _Thank You_ for all of it. Saved it down to file and printed out.

I've absorbed discussion on the workmanship and nakagos before, but that is the first time I've walked through an explanation of the various signatures I've seen.

 

Interesting observations on Aoi-Arts listing.

On hold now, so good luck to the new owner.

[Brian]

Barry,

Great work there, if you email me the .doc, I will make sure it is uploaded in this thread.

 

Brian

[Jim P]

Thank you Micha and Barry, excellent work 8 had a ? not at all like the rest also I see that hamon get thin at points in 1 or 2 of the examples is this from a lot a polishes or a trait of the work ?

[Lindus]

So this would be 2nd generation?.......If 1st,which I think it may have been, a chap in Aus is a very hapy man now....

Roy

[b.hennick]

I just finished reading my newly arrived issues of the NTHK - NPO publication. #693 had a kantei blade that looked like a Muramasa. The answer in 694 was Muramasa. I thought that some of you would like to see those images and the explanation.

[Brian]

A big thank you to Barry and Micha for the Muramasa document, which I have uploaded and converted to .pdf.

It can be viewed here:

http://www.militaria.co.za/articles/Muramasa.pdf

 

Brian

[micha]

Hi all,

 

Although I posted the picture of the nakago-jiri, I think 1th and 3th generation should be switched.

This is my opinion after many many oshigata and pictures I've been looking at the past weeks.

My apology to mr. Kataoka Ginsaku who made the picture I posted before.

This is my personal opinion.

 

Micha

[Jim P]

Hi all, I thought I would post the answer to the last question I asked. I found this in( facts and fundamentals of Japanese swords- page 91)

A hamon that runs off in the Tani (valleys) are caused by polishing and repairs and it is not a desirable condition, Muramasa blades often have this characteristic and if it was some other smith most would hate it.

Also Micha has said that 1th and 3th generation should be switched. is that the consensus of the board ? thanks

[cabowen]

Hi all, I thought I would post the answer to the last question I asked. I found this in( facts and fundamentals of Japanese swords- page 91) A hamon that runs off in the Tani (valleys) are caused by polishing and repairs and it is not a desirable condition, Muramasa blades often have this characteristic and if it was some other smith most would hate it

 

Why do you think that there aren't those that hate it in Muramasa blades as well????