Inherited Samurai doll.

[xxlotus8xx]

Greetings NMB friends

As some of you know I am the steward to my Grandfather's WW2 relics of which he collected during the Pacific campaign. He was a US Marine and landed Iwo Jima during that historical battle.

Of these relics I have inherited the collective education of NMB has provided deep insight and provided many answers to mysteries that I would have taken years to figure out (and would have most likely got it wrong anyways)

These relics include

A ancient Wakizashi with an impossible Mei.

3 Japanese flags that are signed and messaged.

and this Samurai doll.

The doll itself "feels" old and someone spent a great deal of time creating him. But I know nothing about these doll types and the backstory. So once again I consult.

Pictures can be seen here.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxlotus8xx ... 316063624/

 

And thanks in advance to any information.

[xxlotus8xx]

Hmmm..anyone know what the doll type is called maybe??? :D

[Toryu2020]

Ray -

Looks to be a boys day display doll. Hard to say what era this is from without seeing it up close and getting a good look at the materials used. The character will surely be some famous person from history but given the photos cannot really say. What is that at his back, a standard or some kind of weapon? Also the "bubble" seems a very Victorian kind of presentation as opposed to glass and plactic boxes that are more the norm. Not sure what that tells us though...

-t

[xxlotus8xx]

Hi Tom.

And much gratitude for the reply.

1) The display case is a rig from my grandpa.

2) The thing on his back is a saw. I think he is missing a bow as he also a quiver of arrows at his back.

3) His hand has a hollowed out hole that I think would actually hold the bow.

4) The materials used in his making are all natural and he is hand painted.

[watsonmil]

Dear Tom,

The character ( doll ) portrayed is most likely Yoshitsune, ... an idolized Japanese military man who fell victim to his brother's jelousy. He is quite often shown in full armour sitting on a camp stool with a gunsen ( fan ) in one hand. I note your doll appears to have bent hips / legs as though he might have at one time been seated. He always has an impassive face ( expression of a true Samurai ) as he sits to contemplate the future ... death or victory. He is most often assosiated with Boys Day ( May 5th I think ). Your doll appears a little smaller than standard. Just out of curiosity could you advise his height. I have a few beautiful Meiji era festival dolls, and one is elaborate enough that whom ever carved it not only undercut the eye lids, but completed the oral cavity so that you can practically see down his throat. An amazing feat of carving.

... Ron Watson

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

The general term for these is Gogatsu Ningyo.

 

http://www.kyoto-shimazu.com/en/History ... Dolls.html

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[ububob]

Malcom, thanks for the link. I recall the carp displays but was not aware of the how that display evolved.

[xxlotus8xx]

Hi Ron. Thanks for the reply.

His height his about 8.5 inches.

His knees are slightly bent and based on the position they are in sitting on a stool would be about perfect. I think I'm wrong about the missing bow as the hole in his hands seem perfect to hold the items in his backpack.

Once again NMB amazes me. There is no other place on the internet that has such a fantastic collective of knowledge.

I posted some better pics here.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxlotus8xx ... 316063624/

 

:"HOLE" not "WHOLE" Ray! Geeez..

[watsonmil]

Dear Ray,

My Yoshitsune doll while sitting on his camp stool is about 11 inches tall. I am going to go out on a wee limb here and suggest the hole thru his hand once held a War Fan. As to the implements stuffed into his obi at the back, ... some at least appear to be carpenters tools, etc. I think they may well belong to a different doll, and at some point became part of this doll's accessories by mis-match. It is not logical for a Samurai ( certainly of this fellows rank ) to be associated nor in possession of agricultural or carpentry tools. There were sometimes several dolls displayed during the Festivals, and especially easy to have got things a bit mixed up during the war and immediate post war period when US Servicemen were searching out souvenirs to bring home.

... Ron Watson

[Toryu2020]

Ron et al -

While Yoshitsune is certainly a popular figure, what I see is a nokogiri, a tetsubo and a wooden mallet. All items associated with Benkei (see link for reference). It is possible the hood he is usually seen wearing is now missing or this is some other character spoiling for a big fight. I would say the jury is still out on just who this is...

-t

 

http://www.kusanohonke.jp/koukai/tango.html

[watsonmil]

Dear Thomas,

Benkei is a towering figure of strength and Herculean power.

According to mythology, Benkei was the son of a Tengu (these are Shinto demons in the form of bird-men, the offspring of Susanowa) who was trained to become a priest but was, instead, a great warrior. He challenged all new-comers, collecting their swords to reach his goal of 1,000. When the smaller hero YOSHITSUNE challenged him, the giant Benkei was defeated for the very first time.

Soon the two became true friends and Benkei became his SERVANT.

 

The doll in question is obviously a high ranking samurai, .... perhaps we can compromise and say Yoshitsune is carrying his sevant Benkei' s tools whilst he is taking a break from defeating the Taira.

 

 

 

... Ron Watson

[xxlotus8xx]

Dear Ray,

My Yoshitsune doll while sitting on his camp stool is about 11 inches tall. I am going to go out on a wee limb here and suggest the hole thru his hand once held a War Fan. As to the implements stuffed into his obi at the back, ... some at least appear to be carpenters tools, etc. I think they may well belong to a different doll, and at some point became part of this doll's accessories by mis-match. It is not logical for a Samurai ( certainly of this fellows rank ) to be associated nor in possession of agricultural or carpentry tools. There were sometimes several dolls displayed during the Festivals, and especially easy to have got things a bit mixed up during the war and immediate post war period when US Servicemen were searching out souvenirs to bring home.

... Ron Watson

 

Now that's just weird.

I can't possibly see his pack belonging to some other doll. Unless these clothes are inter-changeable like Barbi clothes. The proportions are right as well as the coloring. But anything is possible.

And actually in his pack there is a fan. How do I tell if it is a war fan?

But this brings me back to the possible missing bow. Would not a Samurai have some minimal tools in case he needs to replace his bow? Or make arrows? Or did they have Bass Pro Shops back then?

[xxlotus8xx]

You know...I'm looking at this closer and it is quite possible that his pack was slid in under his belt.

Answers always bring more questions...What a frustrating thing to study... :|

[Toryu2020]

Gentlemen -

Do a Google search for Benkei under images and you will see what I am talking about. Perhaps the armour looks a bit nicer than a monks, and perhaps the doll has a full head of hair but I ask you to consider the following; Maybe the doll does not need to be of giant proportions to suggest Benkei to a Japanese audience, perhaps all that is needed is a hood (now lost) and a naginata (now lost) and a "back-pack" full of weapons clearly still present. Perhaps the doll maker makes only one warrior doll and all that needs to be done is to add little details like a hood or a fish-tail kabuto or a gunsen to suggest different characters...

I still think it is Benkei.

-t

[watsonmil]

Dear Ray,

You say: " I can't possibly see his pack belonging to some other doll. Unless these clothes are inter-changeable like Barbi clothes. The proportions are right as well as the coloring. But anything is possible."

 

It is quite possible as the Benkei doll may well have been part of the same display, and consequently would have been proprtionally the same. You have a fixation of your doll missing a BOW. My Yoshitune doll has no bow but does have a sword and only the Fan in his left hand.

 

Dear Thomas,

You are sounding like a high priced defense lawyer , .... the lowly prosecuting lawyer rests his case, .... call in the Jury . ... Ron Watson

[xxlotus8xx]

Do you have a picture of your doll you can share?

And for the record I have no fixation for anything. I only brought that up because he has arrows in his backpack. And I think my mom mentioned it to me at some point.

I going to read up a bit on Yoshitune and then grill him for identification under heat lamps... He'll talk eventually

But thanks for sharing the info both Ron and Tom.

Is there anyway to figure out how old he may be?

[Toryu2020]

No worries Ron,

Just the American in me...

-t

[xxlotus8xx]

No worries Ron,

Just the American in me...

-t

And it's football Sunday..

[watsonmil]

Dear Ray,

You know, ... I just went thru my Samurai Collection photos, ... and low and behold I DO NOT have a photo. I am not a photographer ( my son does my photos and he lives 100 miles away ). I have four Festival dolls, ... three are absolutely gorgeous works of art. If I can find someone capable of doing a couple of photos ( not necessarily quality ) ... I would be happy to either post them here or PM them to you and Thomas. No promises but I will try.

... Ron Watson

PS> It's the same problem with a short article I want to write regarding GIMEI Swords, ... no one here to take the necessary photos.

[Toryu2020]

For those who are interested a slightly different take on the Boys Day thing;

 

http://tinyurl.com/28t2xnl

 

-t