On the subject of Gimei

[moss]

Eric,

 

Why wouldn't one stick up for mumei and present for shinsa.(At least no pink slip for gimei)

Shinsa will give an opportunity however brief for others to study and share the blade.

 

Cheers

Moss

[xxlotus8xx]

I'm having flashbacks.

A lot of points in this thread I have queried about and due to the "taboo" of Gimei I just keep my mouth shut. Even if the blade is quality.

Hell I even got the proverbial message board flame.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8099

I do not see where anyone brought up in this thread that perhaps the main reason mei is soooo important is if the blade passes shinsa the value of the blade goes through the roof.

But also being that the smiths are so well documented it's very nice to make a historical connections to something you own. It really stimulates the imagination.

[Brian]

I do not see where anyone brought up in this thread that perhaps the main reason mei is soooo important is if the blade passes shinsa the value of the blade goes through the roof.

The reason this wasn't brought up is because it isn't the reason. Very simple.

It doesn't really need much debate why a mei is important, and a shoshin one at that. A John Smith painting signed "Picasso" explains it all. Even if he was talented, it is still not real. I am not going to go into this whole debate again. It is either something people get..or they don't. We have 1000 years of study in this subject to guide us..why do we always try to reinvent it?

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

Can someone clear up a small question I have concerning a kantei point and the attitude of shinsa teams toward a blade that has had a gimei signature removed and is presented at shinsa. Would the sword be considered mumei in the first place and would they (or indeed could they), since the nakago has been altered, still view the sword as ubu?

[Guido]

Can someone clear up a small question I have concerning a kantei point and the attitude of shinsa teams toward a blade that has had a gimei signature removed and is presented at shinsa. Would the sword be considered mumei in the first place and would they (or indeed could they), since the nakago has been altered, still view the sword as ubu?

It's considered Mumei, and if the Nakago is otherwise Ubu, then Ubu-Mumei.

Btw, if properly done, the removal of a (Gi)Mei is virtually undetectable.

[cabowen]

Btw, if properly done, the removal of a (Gi)Mei is virtually undetectable.

 

I think that "virtually undetectable" depends on who does the work as well as who does the detecting....

 

Detectability depends on the age of the sword/depth of the meiburi. Typically a punch is used to first obfuscate the mei by deforming the area around the mei to bring some steel up, then it can be gently peened down, then it is refiled and, if an older sword, repatinated. If the meiburi are deep, deeper punch marks are used. It often reveals itself by a slight (to not so slight) concavity that can be seen by looked at the nakago on edge. Sometimes very slight remnants of the mei will remain where the chisel cuts were deepest and these can be detected if you know what to look for...It is very difficult to match patina and worn yasuri-me as well...

 

I have spent several days helping smiths remove mei....it is quite an interesting process...

[Eric H]

Why wouldn't one stick up for mumei and present for shinsa.

I‘m referring to the statement of Keith G „Ubu Mumei!" ...but even he will submit a freshly polished sword to Shinsa. Owners of a mumei sword "normally" would like to know by whom it was made or at least to which school it belongs. Others with signed but not papered swords want affirmation by Shinsa, also those with swords bearing big names. There is only one way, submit to Shinsa.

 

Eric

[Guido]

I think that "virtually undetectable" depends on who does the work as well as who does the detecting....

I didn't say it's easy, but what is when it comes to Nihontô? I once had a Gimei (deeply cut on an early Muromachi Tantô) removed by someone who knows how to do it properly - it papered as Mumei, and Mr. Tanobe's Sayagaki later said Ubu-Mumei. So, yes, you even can "fool" the real experts ...

[cabowen]

it papered as Mumei, and Mr. Tanobe's Sayagaki later said Ubu-Mumei. So, yes, you even can "fool" the real experts ...

\

 

If the only alteration to a nakago is the removal of a spurious signature, I have found it customary to then refer to the blade as "ubu-mumei".....there is a better than good chance he was not "fooled"....

[sanjuro]

Is it then common practice or at least a practice of convenience to refer to a sword with an altered nakago as a result of the removal of the mei as UBU even though technically speaking, this is not correct?

[cabowen]

It would seem so...With a spurious mei, it was most likely a later addition, thus removing it returns the nakago to an "original" state (at least that is one "logical" way to explain it). I know that blades that are slightly machi-okuri are referred to as ubu too....

[sanjuro]

Chris.

 

This may sound somewhat sarcastic though it is not meant as such, but I find it almost humanly reassuring that even in the monolithic world of the Japanese nihonto experts, the weed of compromise grows. :D

[John A Stuart]

When something is original or returned to its' natural or original state, like landscape, buildings, swords they all will have the prefix 生 in Japanese. John

[cabowen]

It is hardly monolithic in reality (love that honne/tatemae thing....)....And sometimes one gets the impression that smoking that weed would greatly aid in understanding the endless incongruities, exceptions, and contradictions.....such is the mystery called Japan....

[xxlotus8xx]

It doesn't really need much debate why a mei is important, and a shoshin one at that. A John Smith painting signed "Picasso" explains it all. Even if he was talented, it is still not real. I am not going to go into this whole debate again. It is either something people get..or they don't. We have 1000 years of study in this subject to guide us..why do we always try to reinvent it?

 

Brian

 

I know Brian. But I was just sayin....

 

I also know that I have a true "Sagami no ju Yukimitsu" Wakizashi...(Or at least it's nice to think that!!).

But I don't trip. And really does it matter?

The fact is Nihonto is a historical study that is highly documented. And regardless of the Mei it still blows my mind to ponder on the history these blades have gone through. IMO I would be more interested in the history of the blade owners and lineage. To find out the blades journey and how it ended up in my hands.

[Lee Bray]

And really does it matter?

 

Yes.

[sanjuro]

Ray.

I have to agree with Lee. It does matter. Surely the first step in establishing the provenance of a sword is to establish the school, by whom it was made and when. Not however, that you will unless the sword is meito, be able to trace its journey through history. The truth of the matter is that the history of most swords we have available today is likely far more prosaic than your romantic imaginings.

With higher quality swords it could be said to be essential that the sword in question has been through shinsa and is appropriately papered.

Believe me. I am not by any means the most enthusiastic person when it comes to shinsa. However, I do recognise its value and its necessity.

 

If however all you wish to do is own an average clunker and sit around admiring it for what it may have once been and for who it may have once belonged to then no, you dont need to know anything about the maker or the school or the period. Your sword then has sadly been reduced to a fetish object - A focal point for your historical fantasies. You will however not be taken very seriously in your professed interest. I guess once you get over all that romantic nonsense and imaginings, and learn a little about swords and history, you can then begin to think of yourself as an admirer of nihonto rather than a historical dreamer.

[xxlotus8xx]

Ray.

I have to agree with Lee. It does matter. Surely the first step in establishing the provenance of a sword is to establish the school, by whom it was made and when. Not however, that you will unless the sword is meito, be able to trace its journey through history. The truth of the matter is that the history of most swords we have available today is likely far more prosaic than your romantic imaginings.

With higher quality swords it could be said to be essential that the sword in question has been through shinsa and is appropriately papered.

Believe me. I am not by any means the most enthusiastic person when it comes to shinsa. However, I do recognise its value and its necessity.

 

If however all you wish to do is own an average clunker and sit around admiring it for what it may have once been and for who it may have once belonged to then no, you dont need to know anything about the maker or the school or the period. Your sword then has sadly been reduced to a fetish object - A focal point for your historical fantasies. You will however not be taken very seriously in your professed interest. I guess once you get over all that romantic nonsense and imaginings, and learn a little about swords and history, you can then begin to think of yourself as an admirer of nihonto rather than a historical dreamer.

 

OK now its personal.

Quality is quality with or without a Mei. So if you think a 300+ year old Sosho Wakizashi that has traversed time and was recieved to my Grand-dad on the island of Iwo Jima during that famous battle is a "clunker" then the blade company you keep must be along the lines of Excaliber. And as a matter of fact I think more than myself would be insulted by your show of disrespect to blade lineages.

I can appreciate the attribution to school and tradition AND the period just as much as the next enthusiast. And I also believe Shinsa serves a good purpose. What I do not appreciate is being judged from someone who knows absolutely nothing about me or what I consider fantasy or not. If you consider history fantasy the yes I am guilty.

And actually if you read the entire thread I was actually echoing some things that were already said.

So excuse me if I do not meet up to YOUR standard of someone who can appreciate Nihonto. If I don't fall into your category then don't waste words on me because you taught me no lesson here. The fact is I know what I can appreciate and what I like and really that's not for you to judge. Afterall there is no "Shnisa" for character and you are hardly my master. So go ahead and do your buying/selling thing because making a profit is what really matters...right? Or at least that is the impression you gave me.

[Lee Bray]

I think you got the wrong end of the stick, Ray.

Obviously, with your sword being an heirloom, you have a different perspective on that sword.

 

To clarify my earlier 'yes', I have a good friend that primarily collects HizenTo. He has all nine generations of the Tadayoshi school, most if not all with katana and wakizashi.

To him, a verified signature is a big deal. His collection wouldn't mean nearly as much if half were gimei. Be it from a historical, collectors or value perspective.

With 30 years of his own experience in the field, he's more than capable of identifying the separate smiths and gimei thereof but still feels verifying papers are an important part.

[sanjuro]

Not personal at all, an aswer to your post yes. As you pointed out, I do not know you, therefore I would not presume to single you out for criticism. My post was in the second part (the bit you dont like), A general observation on my part as part of the discussion and as justification of the value and necessity of shinsa in which I cited the negative extreme of which your comment "does it really matter?" was largely representative. If you feel I have wronged you, then ask yourself "why would I bother?" Please read the reference to 'you' in my post as a generic 'you' rather than a personal one. Its actually less about you personally than you may imagine.

[xxlotus8xx]

So I will apologize for my short temper and perhaps reading to deeply into what you were saying. BUT really. It came across as "better than thou." and very snobish..

I also think that my post was taken word for word with out seeing the 30% humor.

I also will not be deterred by you trying to discourage me from my own study . I actually enjoy it a lot. Almost as much as making music.

Sometimes I think the "experts" really need to step back from themselves and try and be a little more humble. 99.5% of board members here are exactly that. I also think people only comment on the last post without reading the whole thing. I read the whole thing before I posted my "opinion".

And AGAIN. I do know the value of mei authentication and school attribution and shinsa and all that. But as Brian pointed out there is no need to reinvent the wheel and I'm not trying to.. It is what it is.

But really...thinking out of the box sometimes is good. Keeps you young instead of grumpy and judgmental.

[sanjuro]

Me? Snobbish, grumpy and judgemental?

 

I am more often than not, accused of not taking things seriously enough. Alas, I am misunderstood! Ah well.........

 

Cheers

[moss]

Ray,

 

To jump into the ring.......

 

I know for a fact it would be hard to accuse Keith of buying and selling for the motive of profit.

I have a couple of his past study pieces and I know for a fact that one would not have been an investment of the fiscal kind.

 

It was passed to me for less than its original price ,and after shinsa I will post it.......that is of course if it doesn't pink slip as gimei.

The other is an ubu mumei koto piece ,which in my eyes was a very well priced blade.

Same thing ,after shinsa I will post for discussion.

 

I wouldn't be to quick with the tar and feathers.

 

Cheers

Moss

[xxlotus8xx]

Ray,

 

To jump into the ring.......

 

I know for a fact it would be hard to accuse Keith of buying and selling for the motive of profit.

I have a couple of his past study pieces and I know for a fact that one would not have been an investment of the fiscal kind.

 

It was passed to me for less than its original price ,and after shinsa I will post it.......that is of course if it doesn't pink slip as gimei.

The other is an ubu mumei koto piece ,which in my eyes was a very well priced blade.

Same thing ,after shinsa I will post for discussion.

 

I wouldn't be to quick with the tar and feathers.

 

Cheers

Moss

 

Moss your a little late but if you want to drag this out fine. It's quite funny that I am accused of quick judgment because it seemed like Keith was being a little quick to judge. But whatever. I am removing anymore replies to this subject (last nights) because it's starting to feel like high school around here. So please. Continue with the original topic and exclude my rant last night.

[Lindus]

That was interesting on a number of levels............

 

So, we all have it nailed down then?. I remember the biggest dealer in the UK saying to me "Tell every seller it's a fake & every buyer it's genuine,you will be right 95% of the time,by the time the 5% find out its to late". That was of course befor the NMB

 

In the words of the Hill St Blues,"take care out there".

 

Roy

[Anthony]

I know that I might be a little bit late to this party, but from the eyes of a novice...

 

This is the exact reason that I find it hard to take that first plunge into the world of purchasing a blade. I have seen and studied many nice pieces, but I have been warned in the past about signatures, "Unless it's already gimei, it's always a risk."

 

I absolutely love the study of blades, and can spend many hours reading online and researching, but purchasing a blade scares the hell out of me.

 

Maybe a nice tsuba collection would suit me well. :lol:

 

Anthony

[sanjuro]

Anthony.

 

A little perspective might help. From the viewpoint of a novice, it is unlikely that your first sword will be juyo or even hozon, unless of course you have a large sum of money burning a hole in your pocket. Even so, and I mean no disrespect here, chances are that you probably wouldnt be able to recognise a juyo or hozon level sword if you saw one. Therefore, it may be wise to remember that a good sword is a good sword regardless of being signed or not. Learn first what constitutes a good sword from both an art and a practical standpoint. When thus armed with knowledge, you can select a blade for purchase with more confidence. In the final analysis, a signature, even an illustrious one does not make an otherwise bad sword good, neither does a false signature make an otherwise good sword bad. When you look at a sword, do you examine the blade itself first or inquire about the signature? Basically, do you admire and collect swords or signatures? Are you a nihonto autograph hunter?... No?..... well for your first blade what does it matter who signed the nakago as long as the sword is a good blade?

At the end of the day shinsa is not that expensive. If your sword is pink slipped as gimei then have the mei removed and resubmit it......... How hard can it be? if you submit a mumei blade and it comes back with an attribution then so much the better. It might get a little annoying when and if you have the mei removed and it comes back with an attribution to the smith whose name was removed...... But hey that's life, and it doesnt happen very often. :D

 

Incidentally, as far as tsuba go, you may well run into exactly the same problems. :?

[Anthony]

It appears you read a little too deeply into my last post.

 

I never meant to seem that a signature somehow signified a better blade, but it does signify a larger investment. And I never meant to imply that a mumei blade is any less worthy of admiration than a signed one.

 

I simply meant that when it comes to purchasing any attributed works (even signed) it often seems like a crap-shoot as to what your actual outcome may be. And gambling scares me, as I tend to have terrible luck.

 

I would rather have 5 beautifully crafted mumei as opposed to one signed piece in any case.

 

Anthony

[sanjuro]

Anthony.

 

Not reading too deeply but possibly responding too deeply I was just covering the subject really, and attempting to demystify that first purchase. I'm not sure that I achieved it though.

I hear what you are saying about the uncertainty and it comes down to who you deal with when buying. Its not really the crap shoot it may appear to be. Stay away from the likes of ebay for a start because there is nothing there that would not be a risk for a novice. It takes a lot of experience to buy well on ebay, and there are few really good swords to be had at bargain prices. I think you have probably already worked that out for yourself. A good sword dealer with a fine reputation is always a better source. There are decent dealers around who have a reputation to uphold and are least likely to sell you a dud. Whether the sword you buy is signed or mumei is really of no consequence although as you say a signed and papered sword is usually more expensive. As far as an investment goes, I think its been said before that swords are generally a poor investment. What value they have is to the owner and what he gets out of that ownership.

I personally prefer mumei blades (papered and otherwise) for the simple reason that they offer no deception to the eye. What is there is there to see and appreciate without the complication of a possibly spurious signature to confuse the issue. A signature on the nakago for those who know the maker and the style he worked in, establishes a set of expectations for the blade. The appreciation of that blade then becomes subject to the rank and reputation of the maker, and also comparative to the rest of his body of work. Thats fairly heady stuff for the novice.

I guess you really have to dive in and bite the bullet as far as your first purchase goes. It is at least in my opinion, better to begin more modestly and work from decent/good toward better acquisitions. There is much to be learned along the way. :D

[Lindus]

Well,that went well, all questions answered?.

Roy