Argh! Help with this Mei please!

[Razith]

Hello, I'm new to the forum and am glad to be aboard. I've been into Nihonto for about 10 years, yet am still a amature at Translating Mei. A friend asked me to try and translate this one for him, and I'm actually having some trouble with it. So far I'm thinking either Mihara Sadamune, or perhaps Sanemune. Any help would be greatly appreciated. If it helps, the Mei is to a Nodachi, that from the blade style, I'd say pre-1800. The fittings are the only thing that have me worried that it's not terrible old, there leaf patterned, and I don't know when that was popular. But I'm not terribly confident, I've seen some pretty "Old" "new" swords(haha oxymoron for you there). Any help you can give is greatly appreciated, and I'm glad to be aboard this board.

[cabowen]

it is Sadamune but I do not find this signature in the Meikan....

[leo]

It has a remote resemblance to "Sandai" Sadamune 三代 貞宗

The writing looks strange, maybe its the white substance which hides the chisel strokes? The nakago, which seems to be machi okuri, looks shinshinto to me. What makes you think the blade is pre-1800?

Can you send pictures of blade and koshirae?

[John A Stuart]

When I tried translating this mei on SFI I really was unsure about the second kanji. It is a little 'grassy' and thought it might be either Mihara, less sure or Mikata, more fitting maybe. Anyway, I hope someone can decipher it. I couldn't find a Sadamune that fit either. John

 

三代 I hadn't considered that, Martin. Quite possible, but, third in line from whom?

[Razith]

Okay, thanks for the help so far. I'll get more pictures of the entire blade and post them when I can, I've got some of the fittings and part of the blade right now, I'll throw those up. Thanks for the help so far.

[sanjuro]

I'm curious to know what makes you think this is a Nodachi as opposed to a tachi, at least as far as the blade is concerned? Nodachi are relatively rare. Pics of the entire sword would be great. I'm not doubting your word at all because that nakago looks tantalisingly long.

The kabutogane pictured is a tachi style common during the early Edo period, but that arabesque style was fairly well used even into and after the Meiji period.

[Razith]

The only thing that honestly making me say Nodachi is the size of it. I'd have to agree that the style is more Tachi, however the overall length is 55", with a 40" nagasa(I think that's it, from kissaki to guard, please let me know if I'm wrong). I'm out of town right now, but when I get back, I'll try to get full pictures of it. I was thinking a Tachi sword was worn at the hip, while this sword would be way to long to wear at the hip. That's the primarily reason why I say Nodachi, but that's just because I don't really know the cut off between Tachi and Nodachi. If anyone knows, then please explain the difference, besides blade geometry. Thanks for the help so far, and sorry if it's not making sense.

[John A Stuart]

Here is a site dedicated to Nodachi. http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/odachi_gallery.html

Nodachi is the direct translation of the Japanese odachi, a big thick sword, which is often mistaken for Nodachi which translates to field sword. The term Nodachi is generally misused for odachi.

To qualify as an odachi the sword in question must have a blade length of 3 shaku (90.9 cm) or more, however, as with most terms in Japanese sword arts, there is no exact definition of the size of a odachi. Generally speaking, swords that are longer than normal* ones are classified as odachi.

[Razith]

Okay, thanks John. This one would be a Odachi then. It's almost 140cm, so I think it would be classified as a Odachi. Thanks for posting that link.

[cisco-san]

Odachi are made just for display only ?

I can´t imagine that somebody could draw a blade with 150-200cm and 10-15kg.

[Razith]

From what I understand, they usually didn't draw them by themselves. Usually they had a little 'Helper' holding the saya and the Samurai would draw it from the saya and cut in one motion. That's what they did for Nodachi supposedly, why not Odachi. There basically the same. But I do believe that most Nodachi/Odachi/longer swords where shrine swords. And this one has a bit of damage for a shrine sword, I'm wondering if the shrine came under attack at some point and the sword stolen. Or perhaps it was just neglected, which I seriously doubt. Any thought? Thanks for the help so far everyone.

[leo]

Dear Razith(?) Is this your name?

 

The nagasa is not measured from the guard but from the angular portion where the habaki rests on the blade. From there you draw a straight line to the tip. I assume that the actual nagasa is then appr. 39" which equals appr. 99cm.

There are plenty of odachi of this size which where made for combat and they must not necessarily weigh much. I own a beautiful ubu 93cm Shinto odachi by Genichi Kanemoto. The blade weighs appr. 1300 grams and can be drawn without problems.

I guess there are combat blades which were made to resemble the long Koto tachi and presentation odachi which could indeed reach monstous size and weight.

 

Regards, Martin

[Razith]

Thanks for clearing that up Leo, I wasn't quiet sure how to measure the Nagasa. Now I know, and Razith is my middle name. I don't usually go by it in real life.

[Brian]

Tyler,

Since the rules stress everyone needs to sign all posts with a name, might be better to sign posts with your first name.

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Razith]

Will do, for now on I'll put my name down below. Kinda going to look funny to me having both my names on it.

 

 

-Tyler

[Razith]

Okay guys, got a little help on this one from Mr. Hofhine. He's saying the bottom one does look like Sadamune, and the top appears to be two kanji squashed together. The top part would be Mitsu or San, and the bottom part looks closer to moto to him. So we have Mitsumoto as his first name. Only problem is I still can't find anything on that smith. From the temper line patterns he's thinking perhaps Mino school blade. I'm not to educated on my temper lines though so I can't really say much on that one. Just a update, maybe someone can guess out the name from this though. A very confusing Nihonto. If anyone get's and idea's, please share them. I'm all ears. Thanks for the help so far guys.

 

-Tyler