What to look for in 4 - 500,000 yen nihonto?

[raygun]

Hello guys,

 

This is my first post, but I have been lurking around for a along time. I want to thank you for this wonderful forum, and all the contribtuion that have make the art of nihonto collecting such a fasinating subject!

 

Now I'm looking to purchase my first nihonto. I'm looking to spend 4 -500,000 yen. At this price range, what realistic qualities should I be looking for?

 

Are flaws (fatal or non-fatal) acceptable at this price? How about mu-mei blades or unknown smiths?

 

Basically, I have been cruising e-sword.jp and aoi-art.com looking at blades within my price range.

 

I appreciate any advice and feedback.

 

cheers

[Ichi]

Welcome on board, Raygun. From my experience, it's always better to have a non flaw blades when you consider reselling later. It takes time to liquidate blades with flaws especially the fatal ones. Mu-mei from a famous smith is always a welcome feature. This, of course, depends on the quality and condition of the blade.

 

Your budget will also depends on the length. Wakis tends to be priced lower than katana. I haven't bought any swords from e-sword, but they look decent guys when I met them at the sword show. I bought about a half dozen from Aoi, but their business style have changed recently from what I observed. Dealers in Tokyo drop by at their shop to liquidate their stocks. Cheaper markup and inferior quality stuffs, I think. I am sure you can find a good one with your budget range. Just be patience, and keep studying as you surf around the net. Good luck. BTW, two degree north of equator must be damn hot !

[Brian]

Hi Raygun (please sign with a name..unless your name is Ray Gun?)

In your price range you should be able to get something nice, that doesn't have major flaws..and it should definitely not have any fatal flaws.

Not sure where you live..but there are a number of dealers in the links page above that should have decent items in that range. There are many good dealers outside Japan depending on where you are.

Ichi brought out a very good and important point. Wakizashi usually go around half to a third of what the equivalent katana size would go for. They make very good study pieces, and should not be overlooked.

I would rather purchase a really good wakizashi for x price, than a poor katana for the same price. If you look in your price range (approx $3500) there should be some decent items from our dealer friends here on the board.

 

Regards,

Brian

[raygun]

Thank you for responding. I'm from Singapore, so its really hot and sunny here!

 

Wakizashis are also on my list. I plan to collect a set of daisho as finance permit.

 

I see some blades have multiple mekugi-ana. Does the number of holes have any effect on the value of the blade? I find them distracting to the "wholeness" of the blade.

[sencho]

Hi raygun,

 

Your username can be what you want, but what Brian is getting at is just sign your name, or initial and name, at the end of each of your posts.

 

Cheers

Nigel B.

 

p.s. there is a section if you go to your "profile" where you can put this in and it will include your "signature" automatically everytime tyou make a post..... hit "prifile" above and fill in the "signature" space. :D

 

Cheers!

 

pps.... I see you go it.... welcome to the board Andrew!!!

[Brian]

Hi Andrew,

 

The number of mekugi ana doesn't seem to have any bearing on the value of a blade. It just indicates how many times it was remounted and/or shortened. It isn't necessarily seen as a bad or a good thing. It can sometimes denote age..and I think it can be a good kantei point used in conjunction with other factors to verify age etc.

Personally I don't have any problem with more than one mekugi ana, but can understand where you are comming from. Don't let it get to you too much though.

I would recommend looking for a waki for now, and then later you can make your next purchase a katana. Good luck with your choice, and post some pics when you get your first sword. What are the laws in Singapore like regarding edged weapons, and is there much interest there in Nihonto?

 

Brian

[raygun]

Thank you for the helpful advice. As per your recommendation, I'll hunt for a wakizashi first.

 

As for nihonto interest in Singapore, there is but I'm not sure whats the overall situation like.

 

Also, we have a very stringent import law. Razor sharp blades are difficult to bring in here. Antique nihontos should be fine.

 

 

cheers

[Nobody]

Hi,

 

I think that generally multiple mekugi-ana and/or suriage degrade the commercial value especially for the blades of after shin-to, though their physical value are not changed.

[Stephen]

always demand more, i belive that goes for the holes too.

[Brian]

Ah yes..I have to make a correction to my previous statement. I was thinking at the time that we were automatically talking about Koto or early Shinto...but of course the newer a sword is, the less desirable extra mekugi ana are. A shin-shinto blade with 3 ana would not command the same desirability as an ubu nakago.

In general, the older a blade is, the more extra ana are accepted.

I haven't seen 2 or more ana in Koto blades commanding less value, but will bow to the experience of the other collectors here

 

Brian

[raygun]

So more holes on pre-shinto blades are desirable? That's interesting.

 

Also, I assume not all blades are polished unless stated, yes? So can I expect the blades to vary in different degree of sharpness?

 

If a blade is issued a NBTHK Hozon paper. Does this signify that the blade is flawless? Or should I say without any fatal flaws?

 

Thank you helping me out

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Talking of mekugi ana, it always baffles me how the Japanese, who are usually so very respectful when it comes to their swords, merrily drill extra holes in one when it it is fairly simple to re-use existing ana (as with modern shira saya)!

 

Even my Shin-shinto Jumyo, which was originally in gunto mounts, has two mekugi ana.... presumably the extra one was drilled in the 30's to accomodate the eight gunto seppa and thick tsuba.

 

However, I've never heard of extra ana actually devaluing a blade in any way unless it is a Showa piece because this is an obvious indication of a swapped blade.

 

Andrew, regarding Hozon papers and what they guarantee, I suggest you look at Danny's very informative article at:

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shi ... dards.html

 

Regards

Simon

[Grey Doffin]

Extra holes in Koto is not more desirable. Best case: the sword is ubu, one hole. Extra holes usually mean that the blade has been shortened and you'd rather have the original length, no matter how old the blade is. Sometimes the extra hole is because of a change in mounts, not shortening. In this case the extra hole isn't a detriment at any age.

Shortening on a Shinto or later blade does affect the value more than it would on a Koto blade. However, a shortened blade by Shinto Kotetsu would be far more valuable than an ubu late Koto katana by some no name smith. Quality always trumps length.

You can't assume that a sword for sale online is in polish unless you have been told it is in polish. You should always ask. Whether in polish or not, Japanese swords tend to be very sharp.

You can't assume a sword with Hozon papers is flawless. With rare exceptions, however, you can assume there are no fatal flaws (ha-gire, missing boshi, retemper). Those exceptions are very early swords by very important makers, which, in spite of the flaw, receive the paper because the signature and sometimes date are unique or nearly so.

It is less likely that a Shinto blade with Hozon papers will have flaws than a Koto blade with the same paper. Shinto are expected to be flawless or nearly so and those with flaws don't get papers easily. Koto, being around a lot longer, can have a few more warts and still pass shinsa.

But it's not just age that comes into play. The quality of the sword, how well it was made, has a lot more to say about paper possibilities than the presence of loose grain or a tiny opening in the shinogi-ji.

The best way to buy a good piece in your price range is to buy books and study, attend sword shows and study, beg your way into collections, ask questions, and study. Then study some more before you buy the sword.

Grey

[Brian]

the newer a sword is, the less desirable extra mekugi ana are

 

Sheesh..I am really having a hard time expressing myself lately

Make that "...the more undesirable..."

They have a different meaning in context I guess..

 

Grey summed it up nicely.

 

Regards,

Brian

[raygun]

Thanks for reponding to my questions. I appreciate it.

 

I have Kanzan Sato's book on the way to me as we speak. I can see that this is going to be a long and wonderful journey.

 

cheers

[Mike]

Long, wonderful and Expensive :D journey.

Mike

[Guest Kendoman]

If I were you and I had 500,000 yen to spend on a sword, without further ado, go straight to someone like Choshuya. One can get a perfectly signed ubu wakizashi by the 2nd Generation Hizen Masahiro with Tokubetsu Hozon papers, no flaws, full polish, shirasaya 50cm about for this price. I shouldn't as anovice, do the live auctions or the like until you've gained expertise. Imazu san at Choshuya will steer you in the right direction.

 

Good luck

 

John

[raygun]

If I were you and I had 500,000 yen to spend on a sword, without further ado, go straight to someone like Choshuya. One can get a perfectly signed ubu wakizashi by the 2nd Generation Hizen Masahiro with Tokubetsu Hozon papers, no flaws, full polish, shirasaya 50cm about for this price. I shouldn't as anovice, do the live auctions or the like until you've gained expertise. Imazu san at Choshuya will steer you in the right direction.

 

Good luck

 

John

 

Thanks for tip John. I'll definitely look into this!

 

cheers

[Jean]

Hi to All,

 

I just would like to add, that :

 

1 - Do not limit suriage or extra mekugi ana being frowned upon starting from Shinto, unfortunately I have experienced it with Muromahi blades. There were so much blades produced during the Sengoku period, that at Shinsa they don't like (at the time being) Muromachi suriage blades. Unless by a top smith or in top condition, a suriage Muromachi blade (even signed) shall be borderline for passing Tokubetsu Hozon.

 

In fact Muromachi katanas having standard length (compare to Kamakura/Nambokucho blades) have no excuse for being shortened.

 

2 - Do not forget that extra Mekugi anas means at 90% that the blade has been machi okuri thus midifying its nagasa. I have seen, by machi okuri, a katana becoming wakizashi (In this case, you can really stike a deal)

 

I am still wondering if this blasde was not once a katana :

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/06354.html

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Kendoman]

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/06278.html

 

Raygun, here is an excellent exmaple of a well and highly rated smith in perfect condition with no problems and papers.

 

On the same page is a Yasuie sword which is slightly less in quality but an excellent starting point.

 

I would go for these.

[raygun]

Thanks for the lead Kendoman, that does look like a fabulous blade.

 

Btw, are there any particular design from any era that are more desired than others, besides creations by famous bladesmiths?

[Stephen]

was looking at a link the Koichi san posted on another thread...lots of fine blades in your price range.

 

http://www.global8.co.jp/katana/shohin/shohin20.html

[raygun]

Thanks for the link Stephen. Damn! So many blades, so little $$. I'm really starting to wonder what the hell did I get myself into?

 

Ahh... how to explain to the wife..... :D

[sencho]

 

Ahh... how to explain to the wife..... :D

 

Always a massive problem, mate.... I have to wait until she buys a new load of shoes or something before I make a nihonto related purchase..... Last time she bought a new Taiko drum, and I had a new nihonto aquisition within 24 hours!!! :lol:

 

Cheers!

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Same with me Nigel!

 

The wife bought a new laptop a couple of weeks ago so, with her guilt level running at an all-time high, I quickly snapped up a nice pair of menuki with no objections from her whatsoever!

 

All the best,

Simon

[Ed]

If I were you and I had 500,000 yen to spend on a sword, without further ado, go straight to someone like Choshuya. One can get a perfectly signed ubu wakizashi by the 2nd Generation Hizen Masahiro with Tokubetsu Hozon papers, no flaws, full polish, shirasaya 50cm about for this price. I shouldn't as anovice, do the live auctions or the like until you've gained expertise. Imazu san at Choshuya will steer you in the right direction

 

I think you better go and recalculate your Yen. The Hizen Masahiro on Choshuya is 2,300,000 JY. That's almost $19,000 USD.

 

Want a good deal. I bet you can't find a comparable (condition, brand new polish, papers, etc.) "Tanba no Kami Yoshimichi" for a better price. http://yakiba.com/wak_yoshimichi.htm

[Guest Kendoman]

No I don't. It wasn't listed in the catalogue Ed.

[Guest Kendoman]

"Want a good deal. I bet you can't find a comparable (condition, brand new polish, papers, etc.) "Tanba no Kami Yoshimichi" for a better price. http://yakiba.com/wak_yoshimichi.htm'

 

 

You must be joking. A chujo saku with a Moses polish at Hozon over a jo saku with Tokubetsu Hozon and a Fujishiro polish?

 

Are we on the same page?

 

 

Hey Barry and Roger, help me over me with this pro Osaka chap. I must gather my Hizen forces together.

 

JS

[Ed]

Are we on the same page?

Apparently not. Perhaps you should have taken time to have read my post before becoming defensive.

 

The original post by "Raygun" was a request for a sword in the 500,00yen (Approx $4,000 USD) range.

 

You directed him to a Hizen Masahiro:

If I were you and I had 500,000 yen to spend on a sword, without further ado, go straight to someone like Choshuya. One can get a perfectly signed ubu wakizashi by the 2nd Generation Hizen Masahiro with Tokubetsu Hozon papers, no flaws, full polish, shirasaya 50cm about for this price.

I was pointing out that the Hizen Masahiro on Choshuya which you referred to is priced at 2,300,000yen (approx. $19,000 USD), which is not within rayguns requested 500,000yen range. http://world.choshuya.co.jp/sale/sword/masahiro/masahiro1.htm

 

My statement was quite clear, "I bet you can't find a comparable (condition, brand new polish, papers, etc.) "Tanba no Kami Yoshimichi" for a better price."

 

I was not comparing the Yoshimichi to the Masahiro nor implying the Yoshimichi was better or more desirable than the Masahiro. That is left to personal preference.

 

What I am implying is that the Yoshimichi is within "Raygun's" desired price range and is very well priced for a Tanba no Kami Yoshimichi, ie; comparable to other Yoshimichi wakizashi's.

[Stephen]

you saved me alot of typing. I got your back