Dont quite know what to make of this tsuba

[Steve Waszak]

You make Edo period samurai sound like a bunch of idiots who had to have their mothers spoon feed them rice! Were do get this information from anyway?

 

This forum is about enlightenment not spreading misinformation. Do you really think that endlessly butchering tens of thousands of people made samurai better men then the Edo period samurai that were able to unite, control and run a country?

 

 

Keith, you want to take this one, or shall I? lol... ;o)

 

--Steve

[sanjuro]

Hi Steve.

 

I think I'll leave this one for you if that's OK........ You are so much more tactful than I am. Anything that I would write in reply may well start an argument that would cause this thread to be locked I'm afraid. In fact, any reply may spark controversy. I shall however watch and read with great interest. :D

[Henry Wilson]

Eric 99.99%

 

butchering tens of thousands of people made samurai better men then the Edo period samurai that were able to unite, control and run a country?

 

I am not sure that this is on topic and I am not sure I like the direction this quote could take the thread. If a fight is brewing please take if off the forum.

 

I think this thread has turned into something educational. Let's not make people like me regret that I ever participated....

[sanjuro]

Henry has a very valid point. This thread is not the place to discuss the comparative merits of historical periods and the samurai that lived them. I for one would not like to see this thread become a battlefield for the individual pet likes or dislikes of any one member, but rather continue the general discussion in its current informative theme. Just once, please lets not get bogged down with controversy.

[Brian]

Well...since we seldom manage to bring Henry into an actual conversation ( :D ) ...anything that takes this off track or towards an argument is going to be deleted without notification. We are now going to go back to discussing the impliments of the Samurai, and not their status, ideals etc.

Fair warning.

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

One implement that we see much less of is the Uma bari. From what little I do know, I understand it to be of great antiquity and is not usually encountered in conjunction with the kogai. (This is only my understanding and I would appreciate confirmation or otherwise). If my interpretation is correct, I am led to wonder if perhaps the kogai was originally a development or evolution of the uma bari .

 

The first question here I guess is the antiquity of the uma bari, and was it pre kogai?

[Henry Wilson]

How old are uma bari and are they pre-kogai?

 

These are nice questions and to be honest I don't know anything about bashin / uma bari. I also have no extensive information on it either.

 

I found this on a web page concerning uma bari:

 

these were used as both horse bleeder tools and sometimes a backup weapon or "property marker" for samurai. Found on mountings sometimes in place of a kogai, Umabari("horse needle") was a weapon found on the Japanese swords and daggers, used as a lancet for bleeding horses. This Umabari, was used as an acupuncture tool for horses.

 

Acupuncture tool for horses?

 

I found this too.

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/ ... &sk=t&sd=a

 

Can someone help me with these:

*Post the kanji for "bashin" and "uma bari"

* Post a picture of an uma bari.

* Is "Kankyuto" 貫首 another name as well?

* Do uma bari have holes at the end or are they a solid spike, or both.

 

Very old kozuka are believed to have holes inserted at the end and some have metal rings. It was believed that they might have been used as a needle to thread tags to heads of defeated opponents. Could there be link? Maybe uma bari are kozuka prototypes?

 

Just mulling some thoughts and speaking out loud as I wait to be enlightened.

[DirkO]

Hi Henry,

 

I think you'll find more info here :

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb//viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1444

 

There have been a number of topics on this subject.

[Henry Wilson]

Many thanks. Some good reading there.

[sanjuro]

Dirk.

Thanks for the link........ There sure is a lot of information in that thread. The Uma bari seems to be a foundation implement for both the kozuka and possibly also the kogai. Now that raises some interesting thoughts...... Hmmmmm need to hit the books again.

[Ford Hallam]

Keith,

 

I believe it has been pretty much establish in Japan that the kogai is the oldest of the 3 implements (kogai, kozuka and umabari), by some decent margin.

 

It's function was almost certainly originally similar to practically identical implements that we see in ladies toilet sets preserved in the Shosoin repository. I think it safe to assume that courtly ladies didn't use them for displaying heads though this additional use on the battle field does seem to be implied by some sources.

 

I find the notion of sticking a shakudo kogai into the ear of a severed head highly implausable. I've made kogai in shakudo and wouldn't like to risk that slender sao by stabbing it into any orifice.

Also, if kogai were used as handles for severed heads why do they have the ear pick on the end? I can't imagine someone wanting to clean his ears with that after the tool had been in a dead head's ear....I'm thinking ritual purity etc. :D Personally, I think the Kankyuto theory as applied to kogai is just another romantic (if that sort of thing turns you on ) bit of legend. An optimistic warrior would need a pocket full in any-case, surely?

 

If we apply Occam's razor we are simply left with it's more prosaic and obvious function, that of ear cleaner and hair arranger.

 

It is possible that there was an implement called a Kankyuto that was used for handling severed heads but I think it unlikely it was the same as, or shared it's genesis with, the kogai.

 

 

Henry,

 

In the books I have there's only one pair of kanji, umabari and bashin are just different readings, the ON and KUN. Horse needle, for those who don't know Japanese.

[Ford Hallam]

ah well... I've started so I might as well continue

 

Firstly;

If umabari/bashin were used by warriors in the Sengoku jidai then it follows they were mounted bushi. As such they would have worn a slung sword, a tachi. So where would the umabari go?

 

Secondly;

If, as has been suggested, the kogai was indicative of a higher ranking warrior, again, one on a horse , where did he put his kogai on his slung sword? Tachi don't feature either the kogai or kozuka.

 

It's generally agreed that the uchigatana was the first koshirae to be worn edge up and was first used by the ashigaru and other, lower ranks. Practically every existing uchigatana koshirae for this period (as illustrated in the Tokyo National Museum catalogue) has a slot for a kogai. This seems to indicate that the kogai was in fact used by lesser mortals at least also if not exclusively.

 

One would imagine the higher ranking bushi would be accompanied by a page who would carry his "man bag" with all his toilet goodies but that the lower ranks would need to be a bit more self reliant.

 

This also raises another question; who was wearing all those great early pierced iron guards? All the important warriors were on horses, wore slung tachi, flamboyant kabuto and yoroi...no sign of subdued and subtle aesthetic in evidence there. Were the much loved sukashi guards actually used initially by the rank and file foot soldiers and only became prized by later generations of warriors who'd been refined by peacetime and the influence of the tea ceremony ideals and aesthetics. A situation that would parallel the appreciation of humble tea cups made by unknown potters fir domestic use.

 

 

Just thinking out loud....

[IanB]

Ford, I would suggest you are forgetting that any Sengoku bushi of rank had a back-room crew whose function was to look after him and his gear. Even if he decided to fight on foot, he would have a horse to get to the action. Some of these attendants, grooms and 'servants' would wear swords, maybe in some cases tachi, in others koshigatana and uchigatana. During the Edo period, it was actually laid down in statute how many attendants a samurai of a particular rank needed when he travelled abroad. There were grooms to lead his horse, armour carriers and lower rank samurai with spears - and that was just to go to the fish and chip shop. :lol: :lol:

I've probably said this before, but when I took over the Japanese collection at the Royal Armouries there was a strange item that puzzled me. Imagine and iron rod, about 10" long and 3/8" diameter that had what looked like an arrowhead, without its tang, formed on one end the other being rounded. For quite a while I thought it was an attempt by someone to start hacking an arrowhead out of the solid, but the rounded finished end suggested otherwise. It was resolved when I saw another, albeit with Higo style overlay in gold on the shaft, in a 1960's antiques catalogue from Japan that had somehow strayed into the Museum's library. It was described there as a bashin. Now this wasn't for wearing in a sword but obviously kept in the stables or carried by a groom. I would suggest that the sukashi tsuba, bashin, and all such, may have been for swords worn by these lesser mortals, which was subsequently re-used like so much Japanese material was, and ended up on later swords to puzzle us.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

It has always struck me as rather odd that such a decorative item as a kozuka should be hidden away on the rear of an Edo period wakizashi, particularly for those swords whose other mounts are obviously designed to impress. In this position they were unseen unless the sword was removed from the obi,

 

This puzzles me as well by far... can't figure out why but guess in the evolution of mounts at a certain point it was accepted as a rule, written or not.

Early examples of such items as Kogatana and Kogai were always placed on the Omote and was so important to place them one over the other.

I can't imagine these mounts as battlefield ones, so "to show up" was likely the reason of the placement. This reason must have been lost in the much later wakizashi.

We share the same question, Ian.

 

P.S. IMHO their use is much older than usually believed and if you look carefully you can find prototypes of all three main items discussed here, including what looks like

a proto-bashin with hole in the handle.

 

 

[John A Stuart]

I don't find the placement odd at all. When the wakizashi is worn the overhand placement of the left hand facilitates the starting motion of withdrawing the kogatana with the thumb, completed by grasping with the right hand. It is a natural motion that replicates the left hand thumb motion in freeing the habaki from the koiguchi in drawing ones sword. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hi John.

 

You're most likely right as me too arrived at this conclusion until I figured out how differently a wakizashi was worn in Edo period, the golden age of these items.

It was worn not parallel to the uchigatana but rather close to the body and more angled toward the up. This way you had the left side of the body protected by the Wakizashi's blade

while fighting with both hands on Uchigatana, the wakizashi's tsuka not being in the way of your arms movements.

In most of Kendo schools now it's allowed to strike the left Do, but once it wasn't considered a valid score for this reason.

This placement would have made the kodzuka easier to draw with right hand if the left thumb was pulling it out from the Omote side as the Ura one was close to the body.

 

At least, this is the reason that makes me wonder, but I can be totally wrong.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Carlo, I agree that when the daisho is worn it would be easier to draw the kogatana right handed, starting with the right thumb. It is still conveniently placed for this by being on the inside. The way the daisho was worn by unemployed samurai (ronin) was slightly different with the daisho worn more leftward and higher almost under the left arm, a fair reach for the right hand. Mostly though I was originally envisioning the kogatana's use when the wakizashi was worn singlely, indoors by samurai or in all places by the other classes. Either way the placement makes sense. John

[IanB]

Gentlemen, I take your point that a kogatana can be 'started' from its pocket by the left thumb. In fact, I've tried it with the kogatana on the omote, by turning the sword upside down, and it is just as easy to curl the fingers under the saya and use the thumb. It is then however a bit akward, but not much, to grasp the kogatana with the right hand around the tsuka and tsuba. I suppose my comment was coloured by my Western attitude of 'having it all on show at the same time', instead of the Japanese preference for revealing things gradually so that the mind has time to assimilate them.

Ian Bottomley