How Do YOU Collect?

[chuck]

Hi again!

 

So I've been collecting in earnest for a little over a year and a half now, and I still feel like a newbie. I have six tsubas, a fantastic fuchi/kashira/menuki set, and a tanto. I seem at this point to be buying pieces that I like or that appeal to me visually at some level, and then trying to learn everything I can about them. Unfortunately, this has also led me to buying two counterfeit tsubas (inadvertantly, of course). (Fortunately, neither of them were expensive. Why would anyone bother to counterfeit a tembo tsuba anyway? It's not like the originals are that pricey.)

 

So I started thinking a lot about this hobby and why I'm spending money like there's a gaping hole in my wallet, and I'm just curious to see how you all approach your collecting. Do you, like myself, just collect whatever happens to catch your eye? Is there a certain style you collect (like, say, only sukashi tsuba)? A certain school? Historical period? A certain motif (like having 300 mantis themed tsubas, for example)? A certain individual artist? (I think this last would be difficult.)

 

Is it important to you that tsubas or fittings come with authentication papers? Would a lack of authentication papers ever kill a sale for you?

 

How does one go about getting papers for a tsuba anyway? I worry sometimes that if anything were to happen to me, papers would make it easier for my wife to sell the pieces in my collection.

 

What's the limit for how much you would spend on a tsuba or other tosogu?

 

Do you also collect swords, or only fittings? Do you practice a sword related martial art like kendo, iaido, or tameshigiri? (I've been flailing about with an iaito for the last two years. There are days that I think I almost did Mae passably.)

 

Do you display your collection, or do you keep them stored away somewhere?

 

Is your collection insured? Is it through a rider on your homeowner's insurance, or do you have some kind of separate policy? What is your address, and the hours that you are not home?

 

I've noticed a couple of things here I think are interesting:

 

1). I don't think there are that many people collecting Japanese sword fittings. If there were twenty-five other collectors here in the Philly/NJ/NYC area, I'd be surprised.

 

2). For such a small, niche market, there seem to be an awful lot of counterfeit tsubas floating about.

 

3). Maybe because it's such a small market, I've noticed that folks here on this board are much friendlier and more helpful than some other collecting forums I've frequented >ahem< comic books >cough< (I'm a geek at heart. What can I say?). I've also noticed a more scholarly bent here, and an almost complete lack of speculators or "flipping" behavior. Are there speculators in the Tosogu market (as opposed to dealers)? Or is it that the number of potential buyers is so small that it naturally limits that kind of (obnoxious) behavior?

 

4). Ford is a nice guy.

 

Thanks! This forum has been very helpful to me. I look forward to reading your replies.

 

 

 

peace.

[cabowen]

That is quite a lot of questions to answer! I think that if you search this site you will find answers to most of them....some comments below....

 

Many, if not most, start out buying everything that catches their eye, only to find out later that all that glitters is not gold. In general, most advanced collectors tend to specialize. It makes the hunt more challenging and through specialization, usually makes the collector more knowledgeable about his specialty and thus less likely to make mistakes.

 

Papers are obtained by submitting the item to a shinsa, or appraisal team. There are several in Japan. Sometimes, like in October of 2011 (which I am organizing), they come to the US.

 

There are many more collectors than what may appear. For security reasons, many stay in the closet.

 

The market may not be huge today but if you consider that it is a 1000 years old, that is a lot of demand.....

[chuck]

Yea, I had a LOT of coffee last night. Can you tell? ...

 

Probably need to pare down the questions a bit. What I'm interested in - coming from a family where my grandfather collected train memorabilia, my father collects coins, my mother collects antiques, my brother and I collected comics growing up - is the relationship between you and your collection. With the vast number of tsubas out there, grouped into schools, styles, motifs, etc. how do you make your choices about what to add to your collection?

 

So I think my first group of questions are really the relevant ones for this thread: Do you, like myself, just collect whatever happens to catch your eye? Is there a certain style you collect? A certain school? Historical period? A certain motif? A certain individual artist?

 

And why did you decide to collect those?

 

Thanks!

 

peace.

[Curran]

There are at least 15 to 25 other fittings collectors in your area (Phili/NJ/NYC). Be surprised!

Some great collections in that area, but many of the collectors are quite established and keep to themselves. You can meet a few at the NYC club meeting.

 

(from the guy who lived in Jersey City and Phili for 11 years).

There is so much stuff there... you just don't know about it yet. Might take you a few years. Pace yourself.

[watsonmil]

Well Chuck,

Firstly, ... a year and a half does not a collection make. I suppose some might argue that point in that any more than two of anything defines a collection. One usually starts off collecting quite by accident, ... an item is inherited, finding an old or foreign coin in one's change might be another. A collector is an accumulator generally, ... and that is as far in the field of Nihonto and related material that most progress to achieve ... sadly. What you should aspire to is that of a connoisseur. The only way I know of achieving this in such a vast field of art / artifacts is STUDY. For most of us this entails countless hours of reading and if you are very lucky handling items that interest you whether that be at : shows, dealers, meetings, museums or fellow collector's homes. This forum contains a wealth of information, but one must sift the wheat from the chaff. It is always best to study excellent books, and articles by connoisseurs / students of Nihonto. NO ONE can ever begin to be an expert in any more than one or two niches of this quagmire. God, ... I've been at it for far too many years to count, and I in most fields am still a student rather than a sensi. Given the Liberal attitude of most city people and modern fascist governments, ... many collectors prefer to be anonomous and hide their collections or store them out of sight. I'm far from being one of these politically correct twits, and rely on part of my other collection and expertise to deal with problems. Most of my items are insured as itemized items on my regular homeowners insurance as " contents ". The company I deal with have been wonderful in this respect. In regard as to how much money one spends, ... this totally depends upon your finances. The best one can answer is to buy the BEST you can afford. If and when this were to become a spending competion rather than a learning competion, ... then it's time to revert back to the comic books. Oh, and yes Ford is a nice guy but then so am I or I wouldn't spend my time replying now would I .

... Ron Watson

[chuck]

  Curran said:

There are at least 15 to 25 other fittings collectors in your area (Phili/NJ/NYC). Be surprised!

Some great collections in that area, but many of the collectors are quite established and keep to themselves. You can meet a few at the NYC club meeting.

 

(from the guy who lived in Jersey City and Phili for 11 years).

There is so much stuff there... you just don't know about it yet. Might take you a few years. Pace yourself.

 

I am surprised. Tis a very obscure hobby. I'd love to attend a meeting, but as a small business owner working six days a week, with a child on the way, I just don't see where I'd find the time. I barely have time to keep up with my iaido.

 

 

  watsonmil said:

Well Chuck,

...If and when this were to become a spending competion rather than a learning competion, ... then it's time to revert back to the comic books...

... Ron Watson

 

That's actually one of the things that drove me out comic-book collecting was the rampant speculation. Specifically with the comic-book statue market. For those of you unfamiliar, there's a large sub-market in statues based on comic book characters. Kind of like Hummels for nerds. Anyway, people either lucky or connected would get their mitts on a brand new "super-special-extra-limited-edition-exclusive" statue and then immediately re-sell it for two or three or even 5 or 10 times the original suggested retail price. And then they'll brag about it at length on various dedicated message boards. Couldn't stand it. Sold 'em all a couple months back.

 

I'm happy to not have seen this kind of thing here.

 

Also part of the attraction of tsuba and other fittings for me is that they are hand made. Some one had to painstakingly develop the skill set necessary to craft and carve these objects. I've discovered that collecting works of actual art is much superior, imho, to collecting things manufactured specifically for a collector's market.

 

So I'm here as an acolyte trying to learn the whys and wherefores. And I've noticed that while folks here will discuss specific pieces in depth, I've seen little about the hobby overall, and why we all do what we do, and how we all got ourselves into this expensive mess.

 

I'm much happier with my six tsubas, and my F/K & menuki set than I was with my 300+ comic-book statuettes. I don't plan on going back there.

 

 

 

peace.

 

 

 

 

If it wasn't obvious, I was kidding in my first post about wanting to know all your addresses and when you aren't at home. Well, slightly kidding.

[Kurogasa55]

I am relatively new to the sword and fitting collecting world but i have been doing Iaido,Kenjutsu, and Kendo for the last 8 years or so. I have quite a few swords and fittings that i find to be quite nice and every other sword nut that i have met has thought so as well

[cspage]

I like the questions, Chuck, and think that if a few of us answer one or two, it might lend some food for thought on your quest for a direction. I am also relatively new to the tsuba acquisition mania, but have begun to feel that I am honing in on some features that intrigue me more than others. I have about 17 tsuba, one of which is a fake that I figured was when I bought it, and it was a great learning piece as the NMB spent good time analyzing it. I have two katanas and one wakizashi.

Anyway, I started acquiring tsuba, of course, by what caught my eye and fell within what I perceived as a reasonable budget (little did I know!). And I think that I am almost at the end of that period as some of the aspects of the tsubas I have appeal to me more than others. I have Choshu, Tempo, Higo, Ono, Saotome, Owari, Akasaka (who can resist Akasaka?), Heianjo, Echizen Kinai. I am beginning to lean toward the Ono aspects as the weight and somewhat “primitive” unsophisticated “atmosphere” of the tsuba belie the probable opposite in their making. Tempo also reflects that somewhat, but the designs of the Ono/Yagu type tsubas have more interest for me. I am also leaning toward tosho and katchushi for much the same reasons, plus the tactile and visual subtleties of the iron/steel make me feel good. There are some ko-katchushi and ko-tosho out there that make me drool with desire in their spare sophistication. The fancy Soten work and the highly skilled inlay etc. work of other schools doesn’t do much for me. I don’t have to think about them. Echizen Kinai work, not so much either. Seen one dragon, seen them all…(I know, I know, just making a point). The really high end Akasaka with nifty sukashi designs are also on my list (just have to save those pennies). So, that’s what’s driving my intentions in the tsuba world, with lots of caveats and reserving the right to change direction at any time without prior notice.

I also live with everything out where I can see it and enjoy it every day. And no, you can’t have my address.

 

Colin

[bridgeofdreams]

Chuck,

 

I've written about my experience here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6467

 

How common are collectors? A few years back I was flying to the San Francisco show, and had my best tsuba all snug in their travel bags in my carry on. I was prepared with my stock "antique Japanese metalwork" answer for the inevitable TSA query (notice: no mention of "sword" in my description) and as I was answering the TSA guy who had my bag, the TSA guy behind the xray screen leaned out and said "tsuba."

 

Now Chicago is a pretty big place, but I thought the collecting community was fairly small, and fairly well known to me at that point, and I have a good memory for faces (not so much names) but this guy was a complete stranger. He added "I used to collect tsuba."

 

On your point about "flippers" relative to limited edition statues (I have a couple of Usagi Yojimbo statues myself!) I can tell you it's clear to me that this sort of thing happens from time to time with limited edition Japanese Nihonto related books. Most of the small number of copies seem to fall into a very few hands, and the price escalates rapidly until the sheep are shorn. Once most of the copies are in retail circulation, and get resold by their original owners, the prices tend to come down, but never to original publication prices. Long term Japanese sword and fittings books printed in editions of less than 1000 tend to hold their value, at least as long as they aren't reprinted, and can be 'investments' as long as they aren't bought at the artificial peak price.

 

- Craig

[ububob]

When it comes to tsuba the focus is entirely Akasaka.

[chuck]

  ububob said:

When it comes to tsuba the focus is entirely Akasaka.

 

ah! Why only Akasaka tsuba? I am curious.

 

peace.

[ububob]

Akasaka appeals to me in a way other schools do not. I like sukashi tsuba with very abstract designs that are well done for the most part. Also eight generations allows for a sharper focus on research. Perhaps Owari or Higo will be next but there is still much to learn about Akasaka.

 

Short answer is: Whatever grabs ya! :D

[Henry Wilson]

  ububob said:

Akasaka appeals to me in a way other schools do not. I like sukashi tsuba with very abstract designs that are well done for the most part.

 

I think you are saying that Akasaka are abstract? In my opinion, from what I have seen, Akasaka are not really abstract (but I am waiting to be corrected). They are usually well composed thought.

 

If you like abstract, you might like Kanayama tsuba. They are probably as about as abstract as you can get.

 

For my collecting, personally for me, the older and more rustic, the better. Give me a Nobuie any day. I used to hate ji sukashi but I am slowly turning to it. I am a big sucker for Ko Katchushi and Ko Tosho as well with nice mon sukashi.

 

I don't rate papers that much for reasons that I think other members have mentioned in other threads. Basically, they tend to inflate a price and usually confirm what can be guessed with a bit of self study or they just give a middle-of-the-line call.

 

Don't rate dealers much either (sorry boys ) as people making a buck can make this hobby very cut throat. There is nothing worse than that ripped off feeling which I am sure a lot of us have experienced.

 

I display some of my iron tsuba. 5 max and I study them when on display and keep circulating them in and out of boxes. I keep koshirae and swords wrapped and stored. Swords for obvious reasons. Koshirae can chip easily as well as dryout and I don't want that happening.

 

  chuck said:

I worry sometimes that if anything were to happen to me, papers would make it easier for my wife to sell the pieces in my collection.

 

I have thought about this a lot so I have decided to save my "little petal" a heap of trouble. Here is what I am going to do. When I die I am going to come back as a ghost and track down all the families that previously owned all my collection items and return them with a big wad of cash.

 

Here is a picture of me with my collection under my arm.

 

http://www.pinktentacle.com/images/ghostscroll6_small.jpg.

 

:D

[Guido]

  Henry Wilson said:

Here is a picture of me with my collection under my arm.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only cross-dresser on NMB ... we'll make a lovely couple at the DTI ... :D

[Henry Wilson]

Can't wait

[nagamaki - Franco]

  chuck said:

Do you, like myself, just collect whatever happens to catch your eye? Is there a certain style you collect (like, say, only sukashi tsuba)? A certain school? Historical period? A certain motif (like having 300 mantis themed tsubas, for example)? A certain individual artist? (I think this last would be difficult.)

 

Is it important to you that tsubas or fittings come with authentication papers? Would a lack of authentication papers ever kill a sale for you?

 

Kantei should determine just how far the focus of your eyes attention goes with tosogu or nihonto, with or without papers. And, with the 2nd kantei step being determining quality, initial interest can fade or rise very quickly.

 

One simple collecting test I've always found very useful is to gauge whether or not a piece looks the same, better, or worse, each time viewed, and use that information to help make decisions.

 

Sometimes the best thing to do is to appreciate a fine piece without desire entering into the equation.

[sanjuro]

Re this entire collecting question. This moreso for new collectors, it seems to me that if you collect what catches your eye then, as you learn more, that which caught your eye today can often become repulsive tomorrow or when you learn enough to identify what you have bought. The education definately should come first and books are cheaper than swords or tosogu. Following this line of thought, and dismissing desire and just plain old lust to own something, it would make better sense for an initial first purchase to aim for some kind of quality in the item. This is where papered tsuba or swords give the greatest value. The expertise of determining quality has already been expended by someone who actually knows his stuff. Sure, not everyone can afford papered items, but you can learn enough quite quickly to identify a good sword or tsuba from a mediocre one.

Case in point - I recently purchased a papered sword at a time when I could ill afford it. I knew what I was buying even without the papers. A few months down the track and that sword still amazes me whenever I see it. The price has become immaterial to that which I have gained. I am learning so much from that particular sword. I have others that have taught me much also, unpapered and somewhat less expensive, but they were not purchased when I was still unlearned in nihonto. It was not until I knew what I was looking at that I started collecting seriously. Accumulating is not collecting in my opinion. Without some sort of focus, then there is no theme or structure to a collection.

Look at and handle as many good quality items as possible before buying anything. Just looking teaches you a great deal.