Presentation box

[David Flynn]

Jim I have to disagree with you here. Asking for a Sayagaki is one thing, having someone of a particular standing is another. Some polishers will even do sayagaki if asked and then (depending on whether they signed it or not) put their own reputation on the line. If a sword has papers, and the sayagaki matches, what's the problem. Having and "Expert", do the sayagaki really doesn't have much bearing on the issue, unless it doesn't match what the Sword soc. say. Of course it's nice to have a sayagaki by say, Kanozan Sato or someone of that stature, but in the long run, it's the sword and the sword soc. that counts.

[Eric H]

  David Flynn said:

Having and "Expert", do the sayagaki really doesn't have much bearing on the issue, unless it doesn't match what the Sword soc. say. Of course it's nice to have a sayagaki by say, Kanozan Sato or someone of that stature

Sorry, I disagree, it's not "nice", a sayagaki by a recognized authority adds to the value of a sword.

 

Without hairsplitting...

 

Sayagaki is literally a script written on a saya...the difference as I understand it with Nihonto it is valuable only when performed by a recognized authority...Honami Koson, Kanzan Sato, Tanobe Michihiro f.e.

 

When it comes to other „sayagakis“ like from this dealer, this is solely a repeated description of the kanteisho: Hizen Tadakuni, Nagasa, Jidai...poorly executed

 

If Tanobe san would have made a sayagaki on this Tadakuni he would have added most likely an exlanatory information on this specific sword...given that the sword is of appropriate level.

 

As an example have a look at the added Sayagaki and especially at the fourth column.

 

Well, this discriminates „amateur“ sayagaki between the most desirable „expert“ sayagaki.

 

Eric

[David Flynn]

I see your point Eric. Yes that type of Sayagaki is desirable. However when buying a sword, unless one is a novice and buying the sword on reputation, The Sayagaki is Just nice to have. It doesn't change the sword. It doesn't make the sword any better or worse. Hopefuly, when one is buying a sword of this quality (usualy, Tokubetsu Hozon, or Juyo), One is already familiar, with the workmanship and quality and the sayagaki only backs up their own assesment.

[sanjuro]

On general principles, yes, a sayagaki by a recognised authority is nice to have. That it adds value to a sword is a bit debatable. I certainly wouldnt pay more for a sword with a sayagaki on the shirasaya merely because there is a saya gaki there regardless of who it is purported to have been done by. Nor would I expect to pay less for a sword that has no sayagaki. It is simply there or it isnt. At best the sayagaki merely adds to the interest and bears out what one already knows about the sword from Kantei.

An unpapered sword with a sayagaki does not have any authentication beyond what is written on the saya. On the other hand, papered sword with a sayagaki is nice... but its just verification. A papered sword without a sayagaki is verified and therefore no sayagaki is necessary.

If you are more impressed by a sayagaki than the sword within the shirasaya it is written on, then you perhaps still have some way to go and have more to learn about nihonto. :D

[Eric H]

  sanjuro said:

That it adds value to a sword is a bit debatable. I certainly wouldnt pay more for a sword with a sayagaki on the shirasaya merely because there is a saya gaki there regardless of who it is purported to have been done by

Tanobe san sends greetings

 

I‘m afraid you haven‘t understood the message:

 

Sayagaki by a „nobody“ is worthless...saygaki by an expert like Tanobe san is an enrichment not only by its skillful and artistic execution but also because of addional information on the respective sword. As you are not able to read the forth columne unless the help of our Japanese friends, you ignore totally the intended purpose, its beauty and informative content of this sayagaki...but this is your problem, not mine.

 

This Katana, mei Hizen Yukihiro (1617-1683) etc. is not dated. Supposed you have the sword before you, are you able to determine in which working period it has been made by this smith?... No, you are not able... why... quite simple... you don‘t have the background, knowledge and expertise of Tanobe sensei.

 

This sword was on kantei at NBTHK Europe... one member gave right attribution, but when without tsuka, there were others who claimed the nakago tapers too much...insinuating a possible gimei...always those „super knowledegeable“ ones...but there was the sayagaki.

 

Tanzan wrote:

 

This is an early work of Yukihiro first generation before he was given Dewa Daijo. This was made around Shoho era. As the works of this smith are rare, this is valuable as a historical material. And the quality of irregular hamon with choji pattern is quite good.

 

Unfortunately this important information is not given in the paper.

 

 

I for one appreciate highly sayagakis by true experts, those who cannot sympathize...who cares.

 

Eric

[paulb]

Eric,

I totally agree with you. the key point here is who wrote the Sayagaki. I have been fortunate to have several swords over the years with sayagaki by Tanobe-san and also Honami Kozon. Both of these add value, not just commercially, but as reference material.

Sayagaki by recognised authorities are valuable additions to the complete piece. Those by unknown bodies are not because they offer no context to validate the opinion.

Regards

Paul

[b.hennick]

Just a little side note...

I have a blade with a sayagaki by Kajihara. The actual writing on the saya was done by his wife. She is a better writter but she wrote what he told her to write. It is signed with his kakihan/name.

Tanobe san writes excellent sayagaki that often include extra information and if the blade merits it the word chin chin cho cho - indicating an excellent blade.

Here is the sayagaki from the Go Yoshihiro on Nihonto.ca

重要刀剣指定品

Juyo Token Shitei Hin

Important Sword Designated Item

越中國江義弘

Etchu no Kuni Go Yoshihiro

但大磨上無銘藩政期ハ鍋島家ノ傳来同工ノ一作域ナル

Tadashi o-suriage mumei han sei ki ha Nabeshima ke no denrai doukou no issaku iki naru.

Although shortened and unsigned, this Go Yoshihiro was one of three handed down from the feudal period by the lords of the House of Nabeshima.

大和氣質ノ混在スル出来口也

Yamato ki shitsu no konzai deki kuchi nari

The qualities of the workmanship show the spirit of the Yamato style.

沸ノ働キ見事亦地刃洗練味有之候

Nie no hataraki ki migoto mata jiba senren mi ari kore sourou

The activities of nie in the jihada and hamon are beautiful and of refined taste,

而格調頗ル高矣

shikashite kakuchou sukoburu takashi

as well as exceedingly noble in the highest degree.

珍々重々

Chin chin, cho cho.

It is very rare and important.

Here is a link to an image of the sayagaki http://www.nihonto.ca/go-yoshihiro/sayagaki-l.jpg

[cabowen]

  Eric H said:

This Katana, mei Hizen Yukihiro (1617-1683) etc. is not dated. Supposed you have the sword before you, are you able to determine in which working period it has been made by this smith?... No, you are not able... why... quite simple... you don‘t have the background, knowledge and expertise of Tanobe sensei.

 

Eric

 

I agree that a well done sayagaki by a recognized expert is a nice addition but as has been said, it does not change the blade. Some people value every little piece of information they can get about a blade (the artifact collector). Others care much less what period in a smith's life a particular blade was made, etc.- they are more concerned with the quality and artistic merits (art collector). For these people, a sayagaki has perhaps much less interest and value. Here we are, back at the same place.....

[Guido]

  Eric H said:

Tanobe san sends greetings

I'm a little confused: are you posting on behalf of Mr. Tanobe?

[sanjuro]

Eric.

I doubt that Mr Tanobe knows of my existence nor cares about my opinions. Your greetings on his behalf therefore have no meaning.

 

However, I think what Chris says has merit. There are many levels of collecting and appreciation of blades/swords and tosogu, and I venture that it goes somewhat beyond the 'art' or 'artifact' designations we seem constantly to review. For many of those levels, the opinions of experts and sayagaki etc are certainly meaningful but not central to their appreciation of a given piece. In the end, the sword itself is what you collect.

I salute the likes of Mr Tanobe and Kanzan Sato et al. The world of nihonto owes them much and their knowledge is beyond value.

No doubt there are collectors who value only the school/smith and an illustrious signature. A sayagaki supporting the papered attribution and adding to the information on such a blade is therefore of paramount importance to such a collector. It also adds to the sum of knowledge that is shared by these pillars of nihonto.

 

On the other end of the scale there are those who care little for papered swords with illustrious signatures. There are also many degrees between these two extremes. I guess where nihonto collectors are concerned there are no 'absolutes'.

[cabowen]

  sanjuro said:

On the other end of the scale there are those who care little for papered swords with illustrious signatures.

 

I know collectors in Japan that will not buy a sword if it has been submitted to the NBTHK!

[Jim P]

Hi guys, Eric I agree 100% (Sayagaki by a „nobody“ is worthless) it adds nothing to the information. I understand that they can be done as in Barry's post but for the most part when I ask for a Sayagaki I was expecting someone of note will do it.Just for comparison the other Sayagaki that was asked for but by a different dealer, he new what I was asking I did not say Tanobe san or NBTHK .So I think that dealer had a proper modern view. I did the them for the additional information on the respective swords and I think that the point is if its not by someone of note how do you know that they are not just repeating what on the T/H paper ?as in this case. (its his standing that maters) Chris I was not chasing very little piece of information. I thought it would round out the swords they had both T/H papers so I new that they were ok and I dont think I am a ( artifact collector). I think I am in the art camp also Keith, (That it adds value to a sword is a bit debatable) would you not say a Sayagaki done by a 200/300 year old Honami master does not add value ?

[Eric H]

  Guido Schiller said:

I'm a little confused: are you posting on behalf of Mr. Tanobe?

Of course not. It‘s ironic... Tanobe san cares a damn about the opinion of a „gaijin“. It‘s a parlance used by Swiss people probably badly translated.

 

Different views on this matter were expressed and I respect them.

 

However, if collectors in Japan refuse to buy swords papered by NBTHK I wonder based on what?

 

The motifs?

 

Eric

[cabowen]

  Eric H said:

 

However, if collectors in Japan refuse to buy swords papered by NBTHK I wonder based on what?

 

Eric

 

Based on a few different things, chief of which is lack of respect.

[sanjuro]

Jim.

 

  Quote

would you not say a Sayagaki done by a 200/300 year old Honami master does not add value ?

 

Since this was asked of me personally I would say: No, not for me and not in isolation.

Two reasons for this: Firstly, if the sword did not appeal to me personally, I would not buy it just because it had an accreditation by a Honami, or anyone else for that matter, therefore the sayagaki would have no value to me.

Secondly, the Honami in particular were known to have issued accreditations for swords that were spurious. This during the time when it was popular for the Daimyo families to have a katana by masamune, a tanto by kunimitsu and whatever. Many of the old Honami accreditations were changed by later generations and this I understand is still ongoing.You may say that the sins of the father should not be visited upon the sons, However, once the credibility of a name such as the Honami has been compromised in this way then it is always suspect as far as I am concerned. But this is just my opinion, and it is subject to challenge and in the light of better information it is also subject to change.

The point I was making, perhaps not very eloquently was that for me, first comes the blade, then comes the accreditation and any other niceties like sayagaki. I guess I would not buy a blade that did not appeal to me, regardless of who made it and what the expert opinions of that blade might be.

[David Flynn]

Looks like it comes down to this. If a sword has sayagaki by someone of note and you like it and their asking a higher price than gerneraly asked for a sword of this particular smith, because of said sayagaki, go ahead. If a sword has sayagaki by someone of note and you think the price is too high for this particular smith, don't buy it. Personaly, I would be just as happy with a sword if it had sayagaki or not. However, if it came down to paying more money because of this saygaki, I would probably decline the purchase. Again, because a sword has a sayagaki by someone of note, this doesn't make it a better sword.

As far as the NBTHK, except for Hozon papers, I couldn't care less. I usually have my swords papered by the NTHK. I, like others in Japan that Chris has mentioned, don't have enough respect for that particular orginisation.

[paulb]

For the sake of balance can I take the opposite view David. Who one chooses to send swords to for authentication is a matter of personal choice and I have blades papered by both the NBTHK and the NTHK (I have yet to have one from the NTHK NPO but should they come as planned to the UK I dont doubt that will change).

Of these organisations I have much greater faith in the NBTHK. I think this is born out of the response I receive to enquiries and requests for help. In addition they seem to deal with a far greater number of appraisals than other bodies.

I cannot comment on Chirs's statement about Japanese lacking respect for the NBTHK, I do not know what experience causes you to share that view, nor do I need to know. However if you look at swords for sale from most dealers in Japan and most international auctions the number of blades authenticated by the NBTHK outnumber all other groups substantially. I therefore think it reasonable to assume that the NBHK continues to command the respect of the majority of the sword world. Whether this will change in the future, who knows, but probably. Until then I will continue to put faith in their papers above others.

regards

Paul

(member of the NBTHK and NTHK)

[Brian]

I am not going to let this become a "NBTHK vs NTHK vs whoever" debate. I think we all know how that will go.

I also think the sayagaki debate is done now. Personal choice.

I consider this topic done.

 

Brian