Jim P Posted October 16, 2010 Report Posted October 16, 2010 Hi all, Can some one enlighten me on this presentation box. what is on the box ? this is the link. http://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords/JT988958.htm Thank you
cabowen Posted October 16, 2010 Report Posted October 16, 2010 My best guess is that the top says Musashi no Kuni Shigehiro Hankei (is correct) The inside says that it is a niji mei blade that belonged to the Mito Tokugawa with a showa date and signature of Kanzan (Sato). No doubt our Japanese members will correct the above as necessary.... edited to correct....
k morita Posted October 16, 2010 Report Posted October 16, 2010 Hi, Yes this blade is Hankei. *Musashi no kuni Shigeyoshi.(known as Hankei) *The 22nd ,Registered as juyo-token. A niji mei blade that belonged to the Mito Tokugawa. Showa 51 nen shogatsu (January,1976),signature of Kanzan (Sato) wrote.
Jim P Posted October 16, 2010 Author Report Posted October 16, 2010 thanks guys, so would you call it a Sayagaki ?
k morita Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 where is the blade? Didn't you see this link? http://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords/JT988958.htm
Jim P Posted October 17, 2010 Author Report Posted October 17, 2010 Thanks Chris,Morita san, So its a hakogaki and is a guarantee of the object’s value and provenience ? does the NBTHK do this ?
Jean Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 So its a hakogaki and is a guarantee of the object’s value and provenience ?does the NBTHK do this ? No, it is written opinion done by an expert, It is not a guarantee as it has no refund policy in cas of error :D NBTHK does not do it. They issue certificates which are also written opinion, not on Boxes but on paper.
Jim P Posted October 17, 2010 Author Report Posted October 17, 2010 Hi Jean, I got( hakogaki is a guarantee of the object’s value and provenience) from (http://wiki.chado.no/Hakogaki) and thought that as it was by shinsa judge Kanzan Sato maybe it was something like a Sayagaki so NBTHK. Thanks for the info
cabowen Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Normally a hakogaki, like a sayagaki, is an attribution to a maker and/or attestation of the veracity of the item contained. It can also include comments as to value, quality, provenance, age, physical description, etc. It is usually done by an authority or expert in the field. There are many fakes and forgeries of hako and sayagaki, naturally. In this case, it seems the blade has been awarded Juyo status by the NBTHK, thus once can feel fairly confident that the signature on the blade is genuine, regardless of whether or not the hakogaki is authentic. Odds are though that the hakogaki is indeed authentic....
Jean Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Jim, My answer is a general one on hako gaki and sayagaki. Often on sayagaki (made on shirasaya) you have the smith name, a comment if any, the length and the signature of the writter if any. It helps when you have quite a number of blades in shirasaya to help you remember what is in it. Some of these are done by experts (NBTHK leaders, Hon'ami members) and are valuable, others are just identification means. In no ways they are certificates.
Ted Tenold Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Interesting that on the page listing their inventory, the link to this one (Number 4 on the list) is titled as "Tokubetsu Juyo".
Jim P Posted October 18, 2010 Author Report Posted October 18, 2010 Hi,Guys, Jean would you see them in the same light as a NBTHK leaders sayagak is there info on the hako gak that's not on a sayagaki ? as this one has both,or same thing just different container. is it Tokubetsu Juyo ?
Jean Posted October 18, 2010 Report Posted October 18, 2010 Jim, You are unfortunately mixing different things and don't read carefully the posts. TOKUBETSU jUYO is the highest level in NBTHK Commercial Kanteisho - nothing to do with Hako gaki Your head is spinning and you don't seem rational enough to ask understandable questions. "Hi,Guys, Jean would you see them in the same light" See what?? as a NBTHK leaders sayagak is there info on the hako gak that's not on a sayagaki Sorry, here I am loosing my English. We have a saying in French : "Ce qui se conçoit bien s'énonce clairement, et les mots pour le dire viennent aisément" roughly tranlated in my approximative English : "What is clear in the mind, can be stated clearly and words to express it come easily" Please clarify :D
Brian Posted October 18, 2010 Report Posted October 18, 2010 Ok, I think everyone is getting a bit confused here. What Jim is asking (I think?) is this: Is a Hakogaki such as this one, as highly regarded as a sayagaki by a noted expert? Do Hakogaki and sayagaki contain different info? As mentioned by Ted earlier in the thread, is this blade actually Tokubetsu Juyo as mentioned on the Japanese page? I think those 3 are the gist of it. In answer Jim..don't get your head too wrapped around Hakogaki and/or sayagaki. They are not a formal process like Origami. They are a favour or general "notes" that are added to whatever. If on a saya...they are a sayagaki. If they are added to a sword box..then a hakogaki. It is the same as asking someone famous to autograph your copy of a book. Sometimes you can arrange it, sometimes not. Sometimes they will add a personal message, sometimes not much. They can contain any and all info that the writer feels like writing. Usually a little bit about the blade, and sometimes a comment. If you are lucky, the person doing it is a noted expert and they praise the blade. But there are no set rules. If they are by a noted expert, then they are highly regarded. If by a nobody..then they are not. Often they are fake, so they need to be verified just like anything else. They were faked just as much as mei were, and many in the past might have been not as "honest" as they could have been. Like anything, they need a shinsa panel or other experts to verify them. In this case, all appears to be legit and ok based on the evidence presented. The difference between hakogaki and sayagaki..not much. The value of them depends solely on who wrote it. Brian
Jean Posted October 18, 2010 Report Posted October 18, 2010 Thanks a lot Brian, I had not understood at all Jim's post Jim, In 3 short sentences Brian has crystal clearly stated your case (and answered them) By the way a noted expert is a noted expert, being Hon'ami, Honma Junji, Kanzan Sato, Tanobe senseï, Fujishiro... Only in Western mind can come the idea of competition. They are masters as simple as that
Jim P Posted October 19, 2010 Author Report Posted October 19, 2010 Thank you so much Brian Thats is exactly, what I was trying to understand eg, was more info presented, as it was the second one I had seen lately.(not that common) I was also trying to ascertain its value (not in $) jean sorry It may be the way I post, Ill work on it, its easy to miss things if you don't understand eg,I had a sayagaki done on 2 swords one by Tanobe-sensei through NBTHK. On the first one I asked for a sayagaki but did not specify NBTHK just thought it would be them got back a sayagaki by the dealer It was my fault I did not make it clear I did not understand the difference so now I try to be better informed :D
Eric H Posted October 19, 2010 Report Posted October 19, 2010 I had a sayagaki done on 2 swords one by Tanobe-sensei through NBTHK. On the first one I asked for a sayagaki but did not specify NBTHK just thought it would be them got back a sayagakiby the dealer Could you please upload some pictures of these sayagakis?... would be interesting to see a sayagaki by Tanzan in comparison to a dealers sayagaki. Thanks in advance Eric
Jim P Posted October 20, 2010 Author Report Posted October 20, 2010 Eric, you can tell the one from the dealer also look at (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8386) for 1 more pic :D sorry for the bad photos :?
Eric H Posted October 20, 2010 Report Posted October 20, 2010 Jim, thank you for posting the pictures, they are like day and night. Tanobe san‘s sayagaki is most skillfully executed, like all of his hands...an artwork itself. Generally, a sayagaki, an appraisal written on a shirasaya by a recognized authority, must bear his signature and kao, otherwise its not reliable. Eric
Guido Posted October 20, 2010 Report Posted October 20, 2010 I would be very surprised to learn that the Sayagaki in the first picture (Tadakuni-web1.jpg) was written by a Japanese. The handwriting is very awkward, and looks to me more like done by a Westerner.
cabowen Posted October 20, 2010 Report Posted October 20, 2010 I would be very surprised to learn that the Sayagaki in the first picture (Tadakuni-web1.jpg) was written by a Japanese. The handwriting is very awkward, and looks to me more like done by a Westerner. I think it was done by a Japanese, but not one that has had much experience writing on a saya.....
Jim P Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Posted October 21, 2010 Hi Guys, Yes it was done by a Japanese dealer that posts from time to time. I could not workout how he could consider it a sayagaki ? in the true sense its just a notation ( but I did not say NBTHK ) so its a lesson by the way it cost more than one from NBTHK, it had T/H papers so was it reasonable to think that way ? now will have to send it back at some point
Guido Posted October 21, 2010 Report Posted October 21, 2010 Jim, you really have to work on your terminology ... - Of course it's a Sayagaki, no matter how it's executed or what it says. Heck, it even would be a Sayagaki if I'd scribble something on the Shirasaya. - The NBTHK doesn't do Sayagaki. Mr. Tanobe (among others) does, he just happened to be employed by the NBTHK for many years.
Jim P Posted October 22, 2010 Author Report Posted October 22, 2010 Hi Guido, You are right it is a Sayagaki, but I tend to go with eric's definition (Generally, a sayagaki, an appraisal written on a shirasaya by a recognized authority, must bear his signature and kao,) this has none of those attributes. I say NBTHK as it is where I sent them.Mr. Tanobe's is artwork, so I feel that if I ask for a Sayagaki it would be by a recognized authority or am I missing something is that the common perception in Japan ?
sanjuro Posted October 22, 2010 Report Posted October 22, 2010 Jim. Regardless of your personal interpretation which is to say the least a little confused, I think what you are missing is that you asked for a sayagaki and you got one. End of story! It doesnt matter what it says at all, the writer could have written his phone number in kanji on the saya and it would still be a sayagaki in the true meaning of the word.
Jim P Posted October 22, 2010 Author Report Posted October 22, 2010 Hi Keith, I am not saying that the dealer was not right in his interpretation. We have moved on and speak from time to time. I was just wondering do most people see a Sayagaki as something that is done by someone of say Tanobe's san standing or as you say (the writer could have written his phone number in kanji on the saya) if that is the interpretation why would most bother? I don't think I am confused, that when most of us westerners ask for Sayagaki we think someone of standing will do it and as a lot are done through the NBTHK or others that's the way it will go. I only pointed it out as its easy to get it wrong thank for your thoughts
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