Any idea what this design represents?

[Ford Hallam]

WOW...well done that man :D

 

Malcolm has it....imagine looking through the tsuba onto the hand grasping the tsuka.

 

I'll post a photo tomorrow to illustrate.

[peter]

hi all,

it must be the bunkers at St Andrews

:lol:

Peter

[Curran]

Ford,

 

If Malcolm's answer is the correct one, it will be very interesting to see illustrated.

Looking forward to it.

[jason_mazzy]

Hi all

 

Proximal & Distal Phalanges of the thumb and Metacarpal, Proximal, Middle & Distal Phalanges of the index finger of the left hand as one would hold the Saya and right hand on the Tsuka when the sword is drawn.

 

Dem Bones........

 

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

 

 

WOW thats freakin awesome.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Curran,

 

yes, Malcolm is spot on. I was studying this design a few months ago and made up a thin brass sheet template based on the original. It was only when playing around with it on a blade to get an idea of how it "worked" as an abstract design when worn that by chance I had that Eureka moment. I was quite a strange feeling to suddenly see something that has been hidden in plain sight for so long.

 

I take some suitable pics in the morning and post them.

 

regards to all and thanks for playing along,

 

ford

[Ford Hallam]

This is an image, from Mr Ito's excellent book on Hirata and Shimizu, of the version Remo copied. It actually by the 5th Shimizu master, mei reads; Yasushiro Jingu saku, 67 sai ( 67 years old) Shigenaga. I mistakenly said 4th Kanshiro master...I think the design was created by the 1st Kanshiro but this version is obviously Jingu. Apologies for any confusion.

[Lorenzo]

Now it makes sense, being the signature on the opposite side in the utsushi, I couldn't figure out how to draw the sword in that way

[Ford Hallam]

Lorenzo

 

These pics should help. The first shows the view when the sword is drawn and the blade pointing forward.

 

 

...and this view is what it would look like with the sword in it's saya and as worn on the hip. This is the omote face of the tsuba as worn. Remo's utsushi is signed on the omote, as would be most usual. The original is actually signed on the ura. Perhaps this was done to hide the true meaning of the design from the uninitiated.

[Lorenzo]

Very clever

[docliss]

A very interesting thread; I have never been personally impressed by the 'butterfly' interpretation. But how do we name this image in a Japanese form? John L.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The original is actually signed on the ura. Perhaps this was done to hide the true meaning of the design from the uninitiated.

[attachment=0]IMG_0757.JPG[/attachment]

 

Or because it was for a lefty sammyrai...

 

Wonder why the experts never got it, sticking with the butterflies...

[Ford Hallam]

hey Carlo,

 

the experts are not artists nor craftsmen....they don't think the same.

 

Hello Dr John,

 

perhaps this can simply be called tenuchi. This being the correct grip on a sword hilt.

[Marius]

 

perhaps this can simply be called tenuchi. This being the correct grip on a sword hilt.

 

Ford,

 

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. The hand is an fascinating explanation, but the design is too detailed to omit several joints. If it were a schema, a model of the human hand, it would likely present all joints of the thumb and the index finger. It does not, however. But, then again...

 

Just an opinion :-)

[Ford Hallam]

Mariuszk

 

The design is clearly an abstraction. I don't believe it was meant to be seen as a literal diagram of the bones of the hand. A literal depiction of the bones would possibly not be as mysterious and making this obvious in this sort of aesthetic is not what we'd expect from artists like this I think. The point is that the artist clearly based his abstracted design on the gripping hand. That it wasn't recognised so readily illustrates the point that it's an abstracted depiction. That is what is so intriguing about it, imo.

[Marius]

Mariuszk

 

A literal depiction of the bones would possibly not be as mysterious and making this obvious in this sort of aesthetic is not what we'd expect from artists like this I think.

 

Well, yes, but then again, many highly stylised depictions are quite obvious. Ko-tosho tsuba with their raindrops, umbrellas, grave markers etc. Iris and bridge in Kyo-sukashi... On the other hand there are those abstract designs like pine bark (mitsukawabishi)... very interesting topic.

[Toryu2020]

"the original is actually signed on the ura..."

 

The experts are not artists and artists may not be swordsmen; the grip shown with the right hand would not be correct in Kendo nor in any of the schools of Iaido I am familiar with (from my own limited experience). However given the original design and placement it would be correct for the left hand on the saya prior to the draw. I love this idea but I am highly dubious.

 

I am looking very much forward to bouncing this off of some Japanese heads to see what kind of sound we get. Ford - do let us know when you've something like this up for sale. I like it in copper but love it in iron! Very nice work indeed,

-t

[sanjuro]

Ford.

 

If I may, I would like to second what Thomas has said about the grip being more correct for the left hand on the saya. It just makes more sense overall when the sheathed sword is viewed from the tsuka end, a vantage point from where the main theme of the decoration on the tsuba is traditionally viewed, and consequently oriented to.

 

However, I do like this design and also the interpretation you have placed upon it. Interesting to see if the (other) aesthetic pundits agree.

 

Also the term tenuchi does not refer to the swordsman's grip but rather to a method of bringing the blade to a halt at the end of the cut and more importantly providing a focusing force to the cut itself. Tenuchi is an action where the hands are used in a wringing action (like wringing out a wet cloth). Its more to do with focus and control than merely the grip the swordsman has on the tsuka. Perhaps one of the Japanese forum members could make a better suggestion as to a more appropriate term.

 

Just an observation........ :D

[John A Stuart]

指骨影 Perhaps. John

[Ford Hallam]

Thomas,

 

I'm surprised that you feel the grip I'm suggesting is unknown to you. It's the way I was taught ( Muso-Shinden Ryu) and the image below, of Otake Risuke Sensei of the TSKSR, would seem to quite similar.

 

Looking at this photo I think it's fairly easy to "see" my interpretation....well, it is for me

 

I had considered the saya grip but it seems to me such a grip, when walking would be unnatural. I rather feel the thumb would more likely be on the mimi of the tsuba if the hand were there at all. Of course, having the hand there would be regarded as quite "offensive", in both meanings of the word, so by hinting at the hand being there via the design the willingness to fight would be very clearly signalled. Hmmm...nice alternative possibility.

 

Hi Keith,

 

yes, I was aware that tenuchi has a more specific meaning. I was merely using the term as a title for the design. :D ...I couldn't think of a better one. Perhaps "nigiri-tamago no tenouchi" ( gripping an egg) would be more poetic. It's apparently how the grip is described in TSKSR and would add to the obscureness of the motif :D

[takeda81]

Indeed this is a very interesting topic.

 

"The experts are not artists and artists may not be swordsmen; the grip shown with the right hand would not be correct in Kendo nor in any of the schools of Iaido I am familiar with (from my own limited experience). However given the original design and placement it would be correct for the left hand on the saya prior to the draw. I love this idea but I am highly dubious."

 

Some years ago, when I was interested just in sword practice and not in particular in swords, I read somewhere (wish I knew where) that most of the Yagyu Tsuba for examples were used to transmit some teachings (kuden, okuden, etc) related to the sword practice. It was mentioned in the article that the tsuba craftsmen from the Yagyu family were also experienced warriors. Maybe Ford knows more about that and I would be really happy to find out more.

 

In this light I can say, that I found this Tsuba design quite related to some unconventional but high level batto jutsu (iai) practice from the branch of Itto Ryu that I practice. Also I saw that in 2-3 schools, but of course not for basic levels. It can be related to the Nuki (draw) and also related to the Noto (resheath).

 

Now I am even more happy that I joined this wonderfull forum, with so many knowledgeable people arround. Thanks again Ford, for bringing this up. For me it was really useful !

[sanjuro]

Ford.

 

I hear what you say re the grip and I am familiar with it being a TSKSR man myself. However in your pic look at the grip of the left hand. Given that it would not be so tight on a saya, it almost exactly replicates the design on the tsuba if the tsuba is flipped around. I think that is the point that Thomas and then myself were making. Either way...... its still a fascinating interpretation of the design.

 

It seems we have more than a mere sprinkling of Iaidoka in our ranks.

 

Good choice with the "nigiri-tamago no tenouchi" title for the design. It adds to the obscurity. :D

[Ford Hallam]

...and I may yet end up with egg on my face...if I lose my grip, on reality :D Go on then....I can just hear you....I've already lost my grip on reality!

[sanjuro]

...and I may yet end up with egg on my face...if I lose my grip, on reality Go on then....I can just hear you....I've already lost my grip on reality!

 

Slightly eggcentric perhaps, but I would never make a bad yolk in such eggstremely poor taste! That would just be rotten. (Groan).

:D

[Ford Hallam]

ah...Keith, you crack me up! :D

[Toryu2020]

Ouch!

Ford - I can see it working either way, however even in your photo the right thumb and index finger are more open, from the front if you had x-ray vision the bones would appear "flatter". As someone else pointed out there appear to be one or two bones missing.

 

Now if you flip it, and imagine the left hand gripping a saya, not only would the hand be tighter around the saya, so that you are looking almost straight at the top of the fist, you can count the four bones of the index finger, and two bones for the thumb, and most important, the long bones in both the thumb and index finger appear exactly where you see them in the hand, no need for artistic interpretation.

 

I suggest "Natsume Han-tamago" or "soft-boiled summer egg" which is the term in Tosa Eishin Ryu for the proper grip on the koiguchi...

-t

[Guido]

"nigiri-tamago no tenouchi"

Ford, I'm looking forward to meeting you again this year in Tôkyô, but when we go out together I'll make damn sure to order all the food myself ...

[Pete Klein]

A little help from the doctor:

 

 

 

PS: I've seen this tsuba design as a dragonfly, the two bottom/lateral sukashi being the large eyes, the other the wings.

[Curran]

Other than 2 years of kendo at university, I have never much been a practitioner of Eastern fencing.

So I will leave that to you guys to debate.

 

From a cognitive point of view, this is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a while. Ford, thank you for keeping the gray matter alive. Try not to kill off too much of your own with Guido in Japan.

 

I'm not 100% sold on the bones of the hand idea, but I see it and really hope that it stirs up some of the Japanese.

I cannot remember the name of the Japanese painter that has the skeletons in kabuki poses, but given did remind myself of other early skeletal perspective like this one by V. Van Gogh: http://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/vgm/index.j ... 28&lang=en

 

Not trying to hijack the thread here, as much as remember who other Japanese artists were that worked with 'animated' images of skeletons and bones.

 

Again Ford.... "most cool". Keep it up, and have fun in Tokyo.

 

Curran

[sanjuro]

Whilst the bone structure of the finger and thumb are significant, we are not dealing here with that alone as in a skeletal hand, but rather in the appearance of the finger and thumb thus positioned when covered in flesh which bunches and flexes with the skeletal structure beneath. If one simply flexes the finger and thumb to simulate such a position then the resultant impression is of striking similarity to the sukashi arrangement on the tsuba. The similarity is too great to ignore. I find this explanation more likely than say a dragonfly which would be much abstracted to conform to this same pattern.

Sorry Pete, but the dragonfly interpretation however abstracted, still leaves a hole in credibility. It is the nature certainly of Japanese artists to abstract the subject sometimes but not to the degree of mutilation we see here, where any association with the subject is distorted, and any symmetry associated with the subject is totally lost.

 

Why am I defending Ford's theory? In this instance because I think he is on to something. Dont worry Ford..... I'm not planning on making a habit of this. :D

[jason_mazzy]

dragon fly? or larvae?

 

 

as I stated in my first post I can see an absrract of a dragonfly, but after hearing Ford's answer and looking at it I have to agree with the uncanny impression of the phallanges.