Namban Tetsu

[cabowen]

  Eric H said:

 

Well, I think if Nanban-tetsu was available in such large quantities, why was it so expensive?...

 

Eric

 

Maybe for the same reasons that rice is so expensive in Japan.....Assuming that prices are set by supply and demand in markets which are neither free nor governed by the rules of capitalism is erroneous.....

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  Eric H said:

A distinction may be made between true Damascus blades in which the layered wavy light-and-dark pattern was an intrinsic property of etched wootz steel and pattern-welded Damascus blades in which patterns were created by welding layers of lower and higher carbon steel such as the Samurai swords of Japan.

In this context "pattern-welded Damascus blades...is also to understand wrought iron, the method used by the Europeans.

 

As a picture is better than 10.000 words, hereunder seven different types of steel on the same Moghul blade. Includes pattern-welded Damascus but no Wootz here.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

After a struggle I have somehow managed to get these pics. It is tied on a bed with a deerskin surface.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

This is good to watch at how wootz looks like compared to folded steel, even if the crossguard doesn't show a proper Hada.

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Piers, an heck of a present. My birthday is September 2 :lol:

[Bugyotsuji]

  Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini said:

Piers, an heck of a present. My birthday is September 2 :lol:

 

Aw heck, just missed it! Happy Birthday! :D

 

I am loving your stunning photos by the way,Carlo!

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  Bugyotsuji said:

Aw heck, just missed it! Happy Birthday! :D

 

No problem. I can wait the next one for your box. :D

 

BTW, it got a nice patina, but this mean you'll never know if it's wootz. As it has been highlighted before, wootz pattern needs an etching procedure to be enhanced at its best.

[Bugyotsuji]

This box? You collect boxes too? Anyway, what makes you think I bought it?

[Eric H]

Thanks Carlo and Piers for the pictures and explanations. An analysis of an original wootz ingot compared with the known data of Hyotan-shaped Namban-tetsu could perhaps clarify which theory is right.

 

Carlo mentioned the high demand of guns, teppo. The manufacture of gun barrels requires equally large quantities of steel as well knowledgeable gunsmiths for manufacture. There was a teppo factory and a canon reverberatory factory in Nagasaki. What kind of steel did they process?

 

Eric

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Wootz ingots (unworked) should look like these ones posted by Mr. Pringles in another board.

 

 

 

I had a pic of a more rounded one, almost perfectly emispherical,

but I can't find it anymore. I guess the shape of the crucible could have changed from different locations. We should remember that crucible steel doesn't

always means wootz, so the shape of the ingot is not definitive evidence. As suggested metallographic studies are the best way to sort out the matter.

For comparison mr Pringles cites a paper by Verhoeven that summarizes data on genuine wootz as follows (to compare with Japanese data given in other posts/threads):

 

Carbon 1.0-1.87%

Manganese 0.005-0.014%

Silica 0.005-0.11%

Sulphur 0.007-0.038%

Phosphorus 0.026-0.206%

Copper 0.03-0.18%

Cromium <0.01%

Nichel 0.008-0.07%

 

originally were : http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/98 ... -9809.html

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  Bugyotsuji said:

This box? You collect boxes too? Anyway, what makes you think I bought it?

 

hehehe.... you nailed me.

[Eric H]

When looking at the pictures kindly provided by Carlo, no similarity in comparison with the „Hyotan“ shape ingot is seen, and in the following article by J.D. Verhoeven and A. Pendray, Muse, 1998, those wootz ingots are described: „each ingot weighed about one pound“ or „as the quantities produced were in kilogram size cakes“.

Further I cannot see any evidence in this article, that any trade with wootz has been made with Japan, the route of destination with wootz was ultimately Persia.

 

It is likely that the age of steel using crucible processes began in India by the pre-Christian era leading to the wootz process. Thus the period spanning 300 BC to AD 1856 is termed as the First Age of Steel, whereby crucible steel making and cementation were two significant processes available for the production of steel. However, as the quantities produced were in kilogram size cakes applications were limited to small tools, cutlery and weapons such as swords.

 

Tatara tama-hagane has been produced in Japan for about 1000 years. It was introduced from Korea in the latter half of the sixth century AD.

 

By the 1660’s the Dutch also became involved in developing the iron industry in the Godavari delta of Andhra Pradesh. Indeed in the 17th century the Dutch Establishment is reported to have shipped from India hundreds of thousands of ingots of wootz steel. The Dutch traded in wootz from the east-coast port of Machilipatnam to Gamroan in Persia. It is believed that one shipment in the l600s alone contained 20,000 wootz ingots, where each ingot weighed about one pound.

 

By the late 1600’s shipments running into tens of thousands of wootz ingots were traded out from the Coromandel Coast to Persia. In fact the range of these accounts coming from various parts of Southern India spread over an area of several hundred square kilometres indicates that the activity of manufacturing wootz ingots and selling them across the seas was almost on the scale of a semi-industrial enterprise in an era prior to the Industrial Revolution.

 

It may continue to be puzzled.

 

Eric

[Bugyotsuji]

A quick clarification. Although it has a Hyotan shape, this is not the original shape of any ingot or mold.

 

An original patty of iron, (280 grams in the box above), seems to have been hammered out when still hot, pinched, and extruded again with a final twist. Kind of like a candy wrapping twist. Perhaps to demonstrate the purity and malleability at a glance. Oh, and I just hit it with my dinner spoon... Perhaps the sound of it also told the potential buyer something about the quality. (Imagine flicking a Tsuba)

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  Bugyotsuji said:

A quick clarification. Although it has a Hyotan shape, this is not the original shape of any ingot or mold.

 

An original patty of iron, (280 grams in the box above), seems to have been hammered out when still hot, pinched, and extruded again with a final twist. Kind of like a candy wrapping twist. Perhaps to demonstrate the purity and malleability at a glance.

 

This is the point Piers. Wootz is freed by the oxigen-free-and-tight crucible only when entirely cooled. Hence he retains the shape of the crucible, often half-spherical.

It's re-heaten at relatively low temperatures only for smithing out the blade shape and it's an hard task. More, it's better to have enough steel to produce the blade from a single

ingot (not much loss of material in the process) because to weld two ingots together might be impossible without ruining the "watering" with the too high temperatures needed by

the welding process.

[Splidge]

Hi all, really interesting thread, had never heard of Namban steel before reading this, this link might be of interest, a PDF by The JSSUS Oct 2009.

 

Namban Steel and Hizen swords: A provocative Hypotheses.

 

http://www.naippe.fm.usp.br/hobby/Namba ... t_fina.pdf

 

regards

 

Frank.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thinness, hmmmm.... Splidge, another very interesting read there. Thanks.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Already discussed in another thread about Hizen swords. I've had a chat with Dr. Coutihno

about wootz for this and another article he wrote for JSSUS, the latter discussing the 3

different approaches to smithing in the west, middle east and far east.

[Eric H]

  Splidge said:

Hi all, really interesting thread, had never heard of Namban steel before reading this, this link might be of interest, a PDF by The JSSUS Oct 2009.

The Nambantetsu challenge has already been discussed on several times.

It is strange that no member of the JSSUS has deemed it appropriate to bring this article for information of our members.

Thank you Frank

 

Eric

[Brian]

Eric,

The JSSUS articles aren't really online anywhere as a rule. I'm guessing the author scanned his own article and hosted it on his webspace, and hence why it slipped past most of us.

 

Brian

[Eric H]

Thanks Brian, I understand

Eric

[Bugyotsuji]

Just did a search through J sites on Namban Tetsu and came up with an interesting article. A Shizuoka Museum group analyzed steel from some J swords on which it was engraved that they were made with Namban-Tetsu. Their conclusion was that the swords were in fact made with J steel, and the appellation Namban-Tetsu was a sort of brand-name to raise the value at that time, "Namban-tetsu" carrying a special cachet ever since guns had arrived in 1543. Links for the study are provided at the bottom. (None of which seem to now work)

http://mimizun.com/log/2ch/newsplus/1151754259/

[Bugyotsuji]

Stupidly or not, I bought it and brought it home for the photos you see.

 

Now I have been asked to sell it back again!

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  Bugyotsuji said:

Stupidly or not, I bought it and brought it home for the photos you see.

 

Now I have been asked to sell it back again!

 

Piers, I don't think it was a stupid move. otherwise you'd have not been asked to sell it back...

 

If you don't need the cash and like the item, why sell it ?

[Bugyotsuji]

Carlo, I am obliged, indebted to the person who wants it back. Since he will continue to be in a position to hold doors open for me, I feel that I must go along with his 'suggestion', even if I do not personally want to. This has happened on three or four occasions before; last time I put my foot down. This time I think I owe him, and I hope he will remember me for next time around!!!

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hehehe, social relations... At least it'll be stored here for future references.

[Brian]

Piers,

I won't attempt to understand all the social intricasies there, sounds like you have it under control.

But you must have some serious persuasive powers to keep convincing this guy to sell you stuff, that he has to ask for back later.

Very odd situation, as I am sure only happens in Japan.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes it's odd. He did say when he sold it to me that whenever I got bored with it he would happily have it back. I think he gets into situations where he mentions something that he has owned recently and the dealer or whoever becomes really interested. He then tests my resolve or desire to really own whatever it is. Generally he knows my motivation is weak and I am always short of money, so then he starts reeling me back in.