Help with the mei on a little tsuba: Bushu-Ito or Choshu

[Curran]

I've been looking at a curious little tsuba of Iris theme. Sorry I cannot provide a photo of the signature. Signature is very small and thin but deep strokes.

 

Attached is the signature. The first character is clearly that which see as part of the 'Kinai' signature, and can be read many ways.

How would it be read in conjunction with the second character?

 

Please see scan. Forgive the poor handwriting, as I clipped myself while cutting the yard and hedges yesterday.... not all fingers functional today.

 

Curran

[cabowen]

紀州　kishu perhaps....

[Curran]

Chris,

 

Bear with my limited Japanese for a minute: Can you elaborate how you get 'Kishu'?

 

The first character is clearly cut, 10 strokes, as per the references (Haynes Index and others)

It is the second one I am having trouble with, and how to read them together???

[cabowen]

from an earlier post by Morita san, it seems that KI can be written 記 or 紀

 

shu is 州

 

kishu is normally 紀州 but in line with what Morita san said earlier, perhaps 記州 is also acceptable.

 

The drawing you made of the second kanji might be shu 州 with a little imagination, assuming there are three vertical strokes as you suggest there may be...

 

Of course without seeing the actual signature this is all just shooting in the dark....

[Curran]

Chris,

 

Thank you for the clarification. I had not seen the previous discussion by Morita-san.

 

The second character is hard to imagine as 'shu'. It is basically a deep cut two stroke character with the second stroke being a strong J.

I will try and take a picture of it.

[Markus]

There are older, nowadays rather unused characters for "shû" (州), "province".

For example:

 

 

But I bet the second one is "nai" as in "Kinai":

記内

[cabowen]

But I bet the second one is "nai" as in "Kinai":

記内

 

That was my second guess....

[Curran]

Kinai would have been the easy answer, but tsuba hardly seems kinai to me. I could be wrong as it a school I tend to avoid.

 

Will try to post a photo tonight.

[bridgeofdreams]

The Kinai book shows many examples that are not "typical Kinai," at least to my eye.

 

Looking forward to the photo.

 

Craig

[Curran]

I haven't been able to find the thread where Morita-san says that the use of the 10-stroke 'Ki' is an alternate read for 'Kishu'. Morita-san also seems to currently be on vacation or MIA.

 

Photos should be attached. One photo is mid-clean up. After a bit of minor cleaning with ivory- I think Chris is right that the second character suddenly looks a lot more like "-shu" to me. Not sure what cleaned off, but my eyes see it differently now.

 

Anyone else able to suggest a different reading?

As the tsuba looks like a little late Edo Bushu-Choshu mix of work (like Kiyotaka or such work), I am wondering why it is signed 'Kishu'. If Kishu is the final vote, then I need to take it to the Kodogu discussion section and reason out why it looks nothing like the Kishu examples I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about Kishu work? I only have two sources.