Stopping the rot

[sanjuro]

In a way I hesitate to raise this topic, and should the moderators prefer that it is not discussed then please by all means close it down.

I am sure that others like me have at some time acquired a good blade that was suffering from the usual neglect. Whilst most faults are not actively destructive, our great enemy rust can be quietly destroying the blade while it waits for the attention of a polisher. No doubt we have all experienced that frustration when acquiring such a blade, of not having the funds to have it polished immediately. The credit card is maxed out and the bank manager shakes his head in a negative fashion when funds are sought on demon credit. You can almost hear your blade rusting in the face of such frustration. What is one to do?

Stabilising the rust is an obvious first aid measure, but how to do it?

My question therefore is how does one safely stabilise rust on a blade? I'm looking here for sensible, safe measures, not old wives tales or theoretical remedies. Radical home spun measures are just too risky. So is there a way to just stop the rot until the blade can be put into the hands of a polisher?

[Jamie]

oil arrests rust. But if you have a heavily corroded blade it does almost appear to eat the oil. I oiled an old rusty blade for someone and the spot where the rust was deepest toward the kissaki-looked like it just ate the oil. I had to re oil it a few times just to see that any was there. Hopefully that blade was preserved.

[sanjuro]

Jamie.

 

Whilst oil may prevent rust if replenished from time to time, and it does inhibit rust to a degree, it does not arrest active rusting once the oxidisation has established itself . I would not have asked this question were the answer as simple as the application of oil. Sorry... but its a common misapprehension.

[huntershooter]

Keith I would be interested in how one can stabilize rust as well, particularly on nakago.

I have several Gendai blades that have active (moderate to severe) rust on nakago as they were wartime blades (and although nagasa was obviously maintained, the nakago appears to have been neglected).

[sanjuro]

Todd.

 

These are two different questions, and indeed I am interested in both. On the one hand there is the arresting of the rust which is my original question. On the other, is the conversion of Fe203 (red rust) to Fe304 (Black rust) as on the nakago, which is your question. Although certainly related they are not necessarily the same process. Whilst one process on the nakago converts the active rust (Fe203), to a benign compound (Fe304), the other (or another) might suspend the rusting process of the blade temporarily without converting the rust. This may not be entirely possible or plausible - I simply dont know.

[Stephen]

i have with many nakago stopped red rust with rubbing of bone, id like to think it can be done o the blade as well. if the rust is in a bubbling form it needs to be tapped off with a light tapping of wood. Burnishing red rust on the blade will take it down to surface, we know not to go past the plane, finger stones may take it as far as you can, the rest should be left to a togi. sorry for th3 typos working with one hand.

[Veli]

Well, stopping corrosion (red rust) is theoretically easy, but expensive and cumbersome in practice: Inert gas storage. Rust needs both oxygen and moisture to form. Remove one or both, and the rusting stops. I guess the equipment for storing a few blades would cost at least 2000 USD. Furthermore, the blades could only be inerted without saya or tsuka, since inerting would dry out and crack any wooden parts.

 

The system could consist e.g. of a large diameter glass tube with removable steel flanges with O-ring seals on both ends, equipped with inlet and outlet gas valves, as well as an inert gas source (nitrogen bottle + regulator + flow meter + tubing). The blades should rest on inorganic soft supports.

 

This would be a major project and investment. In addition, the lady in the house might object...

 

BR, Veli

[Eric H]

Professional polishers are in direct contact with rusted blades they have to restore. I believe they know very well how to prevent and stop further rusting of a blade, don‘t they?

 

We are lucky to have some of them on the NMB, and perhaps they will give, based on their experiences, the right advices... at any rate I hope so

 

Eric

[IanB]

Keith, I am now going to repeat a method that appeared in another thread that will have guns swiveling in my direction from all over the place - but what the heck. Use 'Duraglit' (reg. trademark etc ) silver polish. Just keep cleaning the blade with it, constantly turning the wadding to avoid scratching and throwing it away when it gets dirty. If you concentrate on the pits it will eventually remove all the rust leaving them clean and rust free. I used to sit cleaning blades whilst watching TV since it can take quite a while. Despite the hands thrown up in horror on the other thread, you cannot do any real harm with it since it doesn't really touch the steel, only the softer rust. If you keep wiping the blade with a tissue you can judge the progress. Obviously you cannot use this on the nakago, only the blade. And yes I've used the method for year on rusty blades - some of which have subsequently been sent for polishing. There I've said it. I will now duck down behind the parapet

Ian Bottomley

[cabowen]

As someone mentioned, steel needs oxygen to oxidize. Here is what I do (and it is what some togi I know in Japan do too):

 

Coat the blade with a moisture displacing oil like Sheath. Wrap the blade tightly in saran wrap, tape the ends. Lay flat. The oil and plastic make it difficult for oxygen to get to the blade.

 

For nakago, wrap the blade as above but leave the nakago unwrapped. Stand the blade up with the nakago immersed in an oil bath. Mineral oil or fine machine oil works fine. Leave it like this for a few weeks, Then take it out and rub it down well with a soft cloth. The red rust should start to come off. Repeat the process as necessary. Eventually the red rust will be gone and then by keeping the nakago lightly oiled, the natural oxidation will start.

[sanjuro]

Gentlemen my sincere thanks for the valuable input and sensible suggestions. Some I would never have thought of, and theres a sadly rusted but very inconsequential blade in my accumulation of nihonto debris that will serve well in the research of these methods. (Just as soon as Ian sends me a tin of Duraglit).

 

Ian.

No guns swivelling in your direction, you may emerge from behind the parapet. I respect and admire your Robinsonesque views. It takes a brave man to stick to his guns after the last passage of opinions. I would actually like to try the duraglit approach, but duraglit is not available in Australia. (We are somewhat behind the times in some respects, and this is obviously the result of an embargo placed upon duraglit by an anti Robinson faction in the Australian customs department.) :D

 

Chris.

Thanks for sharing the methods of your togishi friend. The method of converting the rust on the nakago in particular is most interesting, and is one that I will most definately try. The stabilising of rust on a blade also makes a great deal of sense.

 

I would still appreciate the views of one of our polisher members, if they would care to share them with us.

[loui]

Hi There,

 

For the nakago what Chris mentioned for collectors it would be acceptable, I add a few procedures that polishers use (yes, practices used and shown to me by fully trained polishers) but wouldn't recommend them for a collector, and most likely the info wouldn't be passed on to most.

 

For the blade itself it depends on what state the rust is and how bad. For some with very minor stabiiized rust I would just oil until polishing, for active rust that will concern me I remove with my stones as soon as I get the blade. Some rust will not be able to be "neutralized" by oiling or oiling and wrapping, this rust goes deep and often has a thick build up and what seems to be a patina, underneath the rust is still certainly active, it must be removed by stones.

 

Many circumstances are different, sometimes oil will work, sometimes oil and wrapping will work, sometimes Ian's method may work (although I have no need to try it), but since every circumstance is different I cannot say how to treat your rust, at a minimum oil heavily (mineral oil is fine) until the active rust you can see is inactive and have a polisher remove it eventually.

 

I have several pictures I will try to find when I get home of what I have done.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

[IanB]

Keith, Although you may not have Duraglit in Oz, I'm sure you will have an equivalent. It is the impregnated wadding type of metal polish that smells a bit like paraffin. Having just shipped something to Italy, I'm reeling and wondering exactly which member of the Royal family is escorting it.

Ian

[David Flynn]

Keith, Neverdull is an equivelent brand, also, there is a generic brand (under a couple of different names) sold in a yellow tin at Motor spares places (repco etc).

[Marc BROQUIN]

Hello Sanjuro,

 

I think all has been said to protect rust to pursue its action. Rust is active because red rust is porous and hydrophile.

 

I am geologist (education) and can say that it is possible to find in the nature cristallized Hematite which is Fe203, those cristals are not porous. and those cristals are black !

 

Black rust is for me another form of Fe203 more stable and much less porous.

 

I do not think it can be possible to find magnetite (Fe304) naturally underbedded under red rust. Magnetite in my knowledge doesn't form at normal pressure and temperature, but is found in case of metamorphism in rocks.

 

Rusting is an acidic reaction, has somebody tried to use a base such as NaOH to stop the acidic reaction ?

 

Best

Marc

[gtstcactus]

Sorry to drag up an old topic...

 

Has anyone tried using a water based rust remover? (I'm sure it's been done and there's a good reason why not but I'd love to know why)

 

I recently got a koshirae set, which was kept together with a broken blade which was rather rusty... Lots of black and red rust on the blade and red rust on the nakago...

 

Being a broken and unimportant bit of a carbon steel I thought I'd try using a water based rust remover on it... (I wish I'd taken before photos)

 

So the stuff says to immerse the steel in the liquid, I poured enough to cover the bottom of a plastic chinese takeaway container and popped the broken blade in it and left it. I had a few things to do so left it for about 8 hours.

When i got home I used a combination of an old toothbrush and kithen scourer (green abrasive cloth but not too abrasive) and the rust just washed away. There was a little black tarnishing left underneath the rust which could have been left but being broken I decided to clean it up with brasso (ammonia and hydrocarbons).

 

As best I can tell the rust remover did nothing to the "good steel" as it says on the bottle it won't harm unrusted steel and it seems not to have. It says it will leave a black film on the steel and it did a little but this just wipes off.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone go and do this to a nihonto but I'd be curious if anyone actually has and the end result

 

There was a little pitting caused by the rust but all the pits have cleaned up nicely, and I figure better the rust gone than further wrecking it.....

 

The product is called evapo-rust the bottle doesn't say what ingredients are in the stuff.....