Can rust appear in 24 hours? Newbie panic!!

[chuck]

Hi - usually I post on the tosogu boards and embarrass myself there.

 

I bought a tanto on eBay from some guy who said he got it at an estate sale. I knew I was taking a big chance, but it looked authentic. (pics here: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=96320) I sent it out to Fred Lohman to have the tsuka and saya re-constructed, more because I liked the blade than I thought it might be valuable.

 

Getting to the point here - I finally saved up enough to have it polished. Just got it back yesterday - the polisher did an amazing job - the scratches are gone, the hamon practically glows, the hada is clearly visible, no more chip in the kissaki.

Not only that, also the polisher said it was an excellent and beautiful blade, and although he couldn't do a formal appraisal, it's probably worth more than I had thought. Fantastic!

 

I took it out again this morning to admire it...

 

...and there's about an inch-and-a-half semi circle along the hamon edge of the front face of the blade speckled with red rust. Me being me, I panic. I grab a bottle of mineral oil and a clean soft cloth and copiously oiled the blade. The red rust vanished quickly, but the now face of the blade is marred by grey spots.

 

I don't know what happened. Was this area accidently missed during the final oiling of the blade? Did I do something wrong that would have caused this? Should I send it back to fix this?

 

Aaaarrrggghhhh!!!!

 

What to do???

 

 

--Chuck--

[loui]

Yes, rust can form in 24 hours - or almost immediately depending on what the blades comes in contact with. If your finger came in contact with it that could cause it. Did you clean and oil it after viewing?

 

Can you post a picture of it?

 

Regards,

 

Louis

[nagamaki - Franco]

Typically, anywhere from the first 6 to 12 months following a new polish a proper coat of sword oil needs to be kept on the blade to prevent rust from forming due to the water absorbed during the polish, until all that water/moisture has safely evaporated out. The rate of drying will depend on the local atmospheric conditions. Ask the polisher for his maintenance recommendations, especially for the frequency and methods of changing of oil during this time. Do not over oil either, as pooling oil can lead to problems on the blade, or runoff soaking into the saya which is not good either.

[Stephen]

good points Franco

 

also to add do not place in front of window with direct sunlight...it will rust overnight with a new polish.

[David Flynn]

Depends also, on how much acid the polisher used. This keeps reacting with the steel for some time.

[drbvac]

Hopefully NO acid at all was used

[chuck]

I was very careful not to touch the blade. Hell, I was careful not to breathe on the blade. I assumed it came from the polisher already oiled, and I did not try to remove the oil or re-oil it (at least not until after the rust appeared.)

 

Should I have re-oiled it as soon as I got it?

 

I've called the polisher and he seems to be convinced the problem was with the saya previously made for the blade, so I'm sending it back for re-polish and he's making a shirasaya for it.

 

Gah. I think my heart just about stopped this morning when I saw the rust. thankfully, it seems to have stabilized. There's no new red rust, just the grey speckles.

 

I will ask him to send written maintenance recommendations when it is returned again.

 

Thanks for all the help.

 

peace.

[paulb]

Chuck,

I am sorry you have had such a painful experience but it does highlight a point which may be worth re-mentioning. I hope you wont mind me using it as an example.

In the past and I think still in the majority of cases it is recommended that when having a blade polished it is always a good idea to have a new shirasaya made for it. This is for exactly the reason your polisher has mentioned to you. While polishing may remove active rust from the blade returning it to the old saya exposes the newly polished surface to whatever has accumulated in the saya over the years. It is more than likely that dust, grit and active rust will be embedded in the saya. This is why all top quality blades you see rest in shirasaya and the koshirae is mounted on a tsunagi.

If you are going to the expense and trouble of having a blade polished it is well worth finding the extra dollars to have a shirasaya made at the same time.

As Franco says obtain the maintenance recommendations from your polisher. Normally it is recommended to keep your newly polished blade in oil for 6 months after polisher changing it initially every couple of weeks and later monthly. This is because polishing pushes water in to the metal surface and needs time to be drawn out. After this initial period how you best store your sword will depend on your location, the conditions you intend to store the sword in etc.

I wish you success.

Best Regards

Paul

[Bruno]

Normally it is recommended to keep your newly polished blade in oil for 6 months after polisher changing it initially every couple of weeks and later monthly.

 

Yes but if you do put oil on the new polished blade and then put this oiled blade in the new shirasaya, month after month the old accumulated oil will make dirty the inside of the shirasaya. So at the end, your shirasaya will be as contaminated as the original saya, won't it be?

 

Also, is it really necessary to oil the freshly polished blade if you put it directly in its new shirasaya?

 

I am not asserting anything, just asking....but to me oil should not be in contact with the inside of the shirasaya.

[paulb]

Bruno,

I think it depends on the amount of oil you use. I think there is unanimous agreement that newly polished blades should be kept oiled. The amount is key, it shouldnt be dripping in the stuff, just a light film. You are right that if you apply too much it will soak in to the saya and dust, grime etc will stick. However the effect of a light film over a few months is vastly different to the accumulated grot that can find its way in to a saya over decades, especially if the sword has not been well cared for and allowed to rust.

Of the swords I have had over the years the only one I had a problem with was one I returned to its original saya after polishing. It did exactly what Chuck's did and gave me the same reaction. Living in a less humid environment and with swords being stored in stable conditions I have moved away from keeping mine in oil and store them dry. I took this decision as I was concerned that the applicaion of uchiko every time I wanted to look at a blade posed a greater risk than keeping them dry. The only exception to this is when I get a newly polished sword which I always keep in oil for the first 3 to 6 months.

As Franco said I think the best advise should come from the polisher.

[Bruno]

Thanks Paul.

 

I understand what you said.

 

But does anybody know if a freshly polished blade has any kind of chance to rust(even a very very little) if stored directly in a brand new shirasaya without being oiled before?

 

In other words, does a new shirasya is 100% safe, clean and hermetic enought for a newly polished blade, to avoid the use of oil, even during the first months?

 

That would be interesting to know.

[Jean]

I don't know Bruno, I have my blades in shirasaya and none has ever rusted even the ones freshly polished and not oiled .

 

I wonder what would be the impact of this following method :

 

The ideal could be to have a great oven and have the blades put to dry at 40°/50°C for 3 hours thus eliminating the water/moisture. No harm to the blade taking into consideration the heat That's the way it is done when cleaning black powder guns to get rid of Water moisture:

 

SKD the gun, put it in a bucket of hot water with detergent, clean it thoroughly, then rinse it thoroughly under clear water, sweep it, put it in the oven for 45 minutes to dry, then oil it.

[Grey Doffin]

Here is a link to the NBTHK American Branch's sword care and etiquette brochure:

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm I believe this is linked in NMB links also. The section on oiling a blade is my understanding of how to do this and get the proper amount of oil on the blade.

Sounds like the old shirasaya was the problem here. If an old shirasaya is to be kept and used, to preserve old sayagaki perhaps, a properly trained saya-shi can split it, clean the inside, and glue it back together. Then it will be OK to place the newly polished blade back in. Short of this, a newly polished blade never goes into old koshirae.

Grey

[cabowen]

If an old shirasaya is to be kept and used, to preserve old sayagaki perhaps, a properly trained saya-shi can split it, clean the inside, and glue it back together. Then it will be OK to place the newly polished blade back in.

Grey

 

To be honest, even this is not the best way to go because it is extremely difficult to clean all embedded dirt and it will never fit and protect as well as a new, properly made shirasaya.....

[loui]

But does anybody know if a freshly polished blade has any kind of chance to rust(even a very very little) if stored directly in a brand new shirasaya without being oiled before?

 

In other words, does a new shirasya is 100% safe, clean and hermetic enought for a newly polished blade, to avoid the use of oil, even during the first months?

 

Yes it will rust in a new shirasaya with fresh polish and without oil - it is raw steel and needs to be kept with a coat of oil at all times. Oil will not accumulate and contaminate if you apply and remove properly. Always keep the blade oiled please.

 

I am not sure how an old saya will cause a freshly polished blade to rust, unless it has water in it - and most saya I have seen have never had water in them. That being said a blade sent for restoration should in most circumstances have a new shirasaya made. Splitting and cleaning a saya is not really that reliable, it will be larger allowing for more movement of the blade now (=more chance for damage), and if it's an old saya they seem to really soak up the oil and dirt, you are taking some chances. I'd almost never recommend (I said almost) splitting and re-using a saya. A freshly polished blade should always come oiled.

 

I hope this works out better the second time around for you.

 

Louis

[Grey Doffin]

I once owned a naginata naoshi wakizashi that came in shirasaya with a Honami sayagaki to Miike Tenta. The blade was polished and a very well qualified saya-shi split, cleaned, and reassembled the saya (all work done in Japan). The shirasaya fit perfectly and I had no corrosion problems. I'm sure the skill level of the saya-shi had a lot to do with this; I wouldn't expect the same results from someone with less skill.

Grey

[loui]

Exactly, that's why I said "almost", I had to re-polish a blade that came back from Japan in fresh polish and new shirasaya, movement in the shirasaya caused scuffing that needed re-touching., no need to make a new shirasaya for that. There are almost always exceptions to the rule. One thing I do is ship with the blade out of the mounts, oiled, and mounted to a board to prevent issues that may occur, it also keeps the customs agents from practicing their ninja skills.

 

Louis

[b.hennick]

The instructions I received from the polisher of my blade was to oil it and change the oil every week for a couple of months and then to oil it monthly. I put on as little oil as I can so that the blade is covered. By looking at the blade in the proper light one can see the oil and fill in any missed spots. I have never had a blade rust after polish.

Blades deserve the best care we can provide - fresh polish if necessary, new shirasaya always after polish, new habaki if necessary.

For the last blade I had polished, I kept the old habaki for the tsunagi and had a new habaki - identical style - for the blade. Both blade and koshirae rest in sword bags.

[Stephen]

what was the old ax, upon reciving a new polish back, once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year. something along those lines.

[sanjuro]

Surely it would be most unusual to have a blade returned to you by the togishi unoiled? Even in a new shirasaya, the newly polished blade carries with it the propensity to rust because of the moisture retained in the polished surface, (not to mention the possible acid residue). It would therefore rust regardless of the shirasaya being new or not. A shirasaya is not hermetically sealed nor is there a vacuum within. There is oxygen in the saya with the sword, therefore rust would form ie. moisture plus oxygen plus steel equals rust.

[Jamie]

One thing I do is ship with the blade out of the mounts, oiled, and mounted to a board to prevent issues that may occur, it also keeps the customs agents from practicing their ninja skills.

 

Louis

 

This is a great idea, and works well.

[jason_mazzy]

is it possible you accidently fingered it? perhaps when putting it back in?

[chuck]

is it possible you accidently fingered it? perhaps when putting it back in?

 

Nope. Never touched the blade. I made absolutely sure of that.

 

The longer I consider it, the more I think the polisher's assessment is probably correct, and the problem lies in the old saya.

 

Sent it back Saturday. Hopefully it'll be coming back to me soon.

 

thanks for all the info everyone. The level of expertise on this forum is astounding.

 

peace.

[Mark]

if a saya has been repaired (even years ago) with some type of modern glue it is possible it is giving off fumes or something that will damage the blade

[Grey Doffin]

Ever since this thread started I've been wondering who polished the sword. Can you tell us if he was classically trained, self taught, or something between?

Grey

[Brian]

Grey,

I didn't ask that because I suspect the answer isn't the first option. It is a given, that few are spending more than a few $100 on their polishes with amateurs or self taught polishers. I don't want another debate about it though, so if true..let's rather just move on.

 

Brian

[Bruno]

I know a guy who sent his gunto to Fred Lohman cie a couple of months ago, for complete restoration. Blade was polished and wooden liner has been changed but, this person told me the same thing about rust appearing quickly.

 

If I remember well, the fresh rust was already there when he unpacked the box.

[chuck]

Grey,

I didn't ask that because I suspect the answer isn't the first option. It is a given, that few are spending more than a few $100 on their polishes with amateurs or self taught polishers. I don't want another debate about it though, so if true..let's rather just move on.

 

Brian

 

I was going to send it to someone that would polish it cheaply, but instead I took the advice of my iai sensai to wait and save up some money and have it done correctly. He recommended that I send it to Mr. Tatsuhiko Konno in Kirkland, Wa. My understanding is that he is an experienced and traditionally trained polisher. I spend a good deal more than a couple of hundred bucks. I turned down his offer of making a shirasaya when I initially sent it, because I only had enough money for the basic polish, and now I am regretting that. I should have just had it done then rather than having to send it back right away.

 

So. I am quite convinced that this is not in any way the polishers fault. If there is reason to think otherwise, I would like to understand why.

 

peace.

[Brian]

Check,

Thanks for the clarification, and apologies for jumping to conclusions. Sounds like you did the right thing (although I don't know the polisher)

I wasn't insinuating the polisher caused the problem, but a background does help to analyze the issue.

 

Brian

[loui]

Ah, Token Konno, he had a website and now it is not working any more.

 

Louis