A tale of two tsubas - same guy, same shop, or....?

[rkg]

Hey guys,

 

Here are some pics of a couple of ko-shoami tsuba - one I recently acquired, and the other is owned by another board member who was kind enough to let me post the image. They seem to be pretty similar in design, and I'm wondering - Was this "monkey and the moon" theme very popular, or did these come from the

same maker's shop, or..?

 

http://www.rkgphotos.com/recent_stuff/k ... front2.jpg

http://www.rkgphotos.com/recent_stuff/k ... ey_bak.jpg

 

and the other:

 

http://www.rkgphotos.com/recent_stuff/ko_shoami/630.jpg

 

Comments appreciated.

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Rich,

 

To my eye, yours is older and quite differently executed with regard to finish than the other. I would suppose the other is a "copy" of yours, meaning that it is a rather later rendering of the same design. Judging from photos here only, of course, but yours appears to be richer, with a deeper patina, and more carefully modeled sculpting of the details. In-hand may tell a different story, but that's what the photos suggest to me, anyway... ) I don't see these coming from the same workshop, as the metal and metal work appear too different...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Henry Wilson]

There is a famous example of a similar monkey motif done by Kaneie, I think in the Nihonto Koza Kodogu Edition.

 

From what I have learnt Kaneie was much loved by the ruling class of the late Muromachi period and a lot of his work was not "discovered" or documented until around the Meiji period because it was not available to the public until then. Considering this, it is probable that a lot of "commoners" did not see Kaneie's design, so if it is seen in other schools of tsuba I would think that Kaneie was not the originator of the monkey / moon as an art motif.

 

Below is an extract of a Chinese tale and putting all this together I would think that the theme was quite popular in earlier Chinese / Japanese art and fair game for anyone to use it in their creations.

 

Just my thoughts on this sticky muggy morning in Tokyo.

 

....based on a Chinese folk tale in which a group of monkeys attempt to capture the moon. Linking arms and tails, they form a chain reaching down from the branch of a tree to the moon's shimmering reflection on the surface of a pool lying beneath them, only to discover the things we work hardest to achieve may prove to be nothing but an illusion

[sanjuro]

Regarding this theme, In Go Rin no Sho, or at least the english translation of it by Victor Harris and published by Overlook Press, there is a photograph supplied by Kanzan Sato of a soritsuno attributed to Musashi. The theme is of a long armed monkey reaching for the reflection of the moon in a pool of water.

[tenkaichi]

These tsuba are same shop, same period. Heianjo Nagayoshi group, like most with this subject. A Japanese folk-tale is the source, and was often used during the Momoyama period. These are perhaps perfect examples of what a difference state-of-presentation may make in assessing tsuba.

[Steve Waszak]

Bruce,

 

Did you mean "state-of-presentation" or "state of preservation"? I was just a bit confused... Thanks,

 

Steve

[tenkaichi]

goooood question. I meant exactly what I said. Underneath all the possible junk that obscures our understanding, assessment,or appreciation is the preserved state. The "rust" and "patina" questions are actually incestuous, and must be taken together. The random accumulation of random shmutz can't tell of the age of anything. With my next post, I'll describe the reality underneath the dirty surface of a world-famous painting.

[Ford Hallam]

Bruce,

 

I'd respectfully have to disagree with your assessment of these 2 tsuba being from the same studio and time. That the difference in appearance is merely due to the vagaries of time seems utterly unconvincing to me.

 

The granular texture on the first example is, in my opinion, not a result of corrosion at all. This is a deliberate finish achieved by various processes of heating and texturing with fine punches. It also reflects the nature of the actual steel in that it is apparently quite un-homogeneous.

 

The second example has not been subjected to this sort of treatment and the the surface appears consequently much more "hard". The steel quality seems to me to be quite different, far more characterless in fact. This leads me to think the plate is of much later manufacture, mid Edo period perhaps, when tsuba shi could procure suitable plate form specialist steel makers .The carving is less sensitive too, some of the gouge marks being rather ugly....I imagine in an (unsuccessful) attempt to emulate the sort of "naive" and un-contrived quality the first tsuba conveys.

 

The theme of the monkey reaching for the moon's reflection was popular with warriors, I imagine, because it was used by Zen teachers to illustrate various teachings. In this instance the futility of grasping for an illusion. As the early teachers of Zen ( Chan, in China) Buddhism came from China they brought with them Chinese stories and tales to illustrate their teachings. Zen, of course was enthusiastically adopted by the warrior class in the Kamakura period.

Enkô ga tsuki wo toran to suru ga gotoshi. Like monkeys trying to snatch the moon's reflection on water.

 

"The Zen symbol for a wantonly foolish person was a monkey reaching down for the reflection of the moon in the water. If he succeeds, he shatters the beauty for which he stupidly yearned. Such is the penalty for grasping at illusion as if it were reality. "

 

This poem by Hakuin perfectly illustrates the idea. Hakuin was one of the later, Japanese born teachers living from 1685 to 1768/9

 

The monkey is reaching

For the moon in the water.

Until death overtakes him

He'll never give up.

If he'd let go the branch and

Disappear in the deep pool,

The whole world would shine

With dazzling pureness.

 

This is a screen painting that illustrates the story Henry alluded to.

 

 

Perhaps we're the monkeys...all vainly grasping for some sort of tangible knowledge of this vast subject

 

regards,

 

ford

[doug e lewis]

Yes, Henry-san, the 16th century Chinese folk tale called "Monkey"l has the story of the monkeys trying to capture the moon. Read it in college, still have a tattered copy.

 

Siince i am going to get a new/used copy from Amazon here is part of their synopsis : Probably the most popular book in the history of the Far East, this classic sixteenth century novel is a combination of picaresque novel and folk epic that mixes satire, allegory, and history into a rollicking adventure. It is the story of the roguish Monkey and his encounters with major and minor spirits, gods, demigods, demons, ogres, monsters, and fairies.

 

It was Mao's favorate novel! Would love to see it made into a animated movie ala Avatar.

Themes and stories from Monkey are all over Edo period art.

 

Doug e

[Mike]

Differences in the shape of the nakago ana and the different tagane marks also indicates different makers.

 

Mike

[tenkaichi]

The painting is Rembrandt's "The guards Company of Captain Frans Banning Coq". It acquired a popular name (The Night Watch), since it appeared to be a night scene. For at least two centuries this work, one of the painter's truly great works, has been used by commentators to discuss everything from his somber palette to his obvious state of depression. All absolute,utter garbage! After the painting had been attacked by envy-driven losers twice, a reconstruction of the canvas and cleaning of the surface was completed. Whoops, big Whoops, in fact. High noon, spectacular color, more men under the arch, and much more! Soooo, many great tsuba have suffered even more the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune". As I said before, same shop-same period. These may not be by the same smith, or from the same year, but even the period is very close. I've seen how the appearance of tsuba change from both directions, that is out>in and in

[Ford Hallam]

Bruce,

 

entertaining story ....however it's not really a logical conclusion to claim that misunderstandings of paintings etc as you've described are absolute proof of your assertions regarding Japanese metalwork.

 

The initial cleaning of the painting actually happened in the 40's and the acts of vandalism you mention occurred in '75 and the 90's. The ageing and darkening of varnish is by now a well understood fact of restoration. For anyone wanting to learn more about the specifics of the subject and with a particular focus on the work of Rembrandt there is no finer book than "Rembrandt, The painter at work" by Ernst Van De Wetering. This is a fascinating account of the most detailed and exhaustive scientific studies of the artists work ever undertaken. In the case of the Night watch it seems it was actually cleaned at least 25 times prior to the 20th century. The cleaned and restored painting is quite different in appearance now. The real difference lies in the brilliance of the colours. I would have to say the subject is far more complex than you've implied by your amusing story.

 

You say you restore tsuba. I'd be extremely interested to hear where you acquired your expertise and perhaps a little about yourself may allow us to better appreciate who you are. Your profile offers nothing and the 4 posts you've presented us with are all very definite in terms of your views yet you offer no credentials nor substantive argument to substantiate your opinions....which, to be frank, you seem to regard as fact.

 

Ford Hallam

[rkg]

Thanks to all who replied.

 

First, I knew the origins of the theme - I kind of bought it as a reminder of its meaning, actually. I hadn't realized how popular the theme was at the time, which probably

explains their similarities better than them having to have been done in the same shop or something. Outside of the kyo guys, I can't ever seem to remember which schools

did which tagane "adjustments" in the nakago ana area..

 

Second, the "Heianjo" seems like an interesting kantei for it (I hadn't thought about it, but they did pieces like this), though the iron confuses me - perhaps I haven't

seen enough pieces from this school, but when I think of this school either that really doughy, easily rusted iron or that highly refined iron kind of like you see in kyo pieces

comes to mind - this doesn't seem like either of these, plus the patina seems pretty black compared to the Heianjo pieces I've held... maybe they got ahold of some

other iron or something?

 

Third, I hadn't thought about it, but maybe Ford's right about the deliberate "corrosion" - it seems like some of the features would have been completely eroded away

(fine details on monkey's face, the zogan eyes, etc.) if it was "natural".

 

The question of art "restoration" seems to be a minefield - I had recently acquired and started to read "Art Restoration: The Culture, the Business, the Scandal" but managed

to lose it on a flight somewhere (story about trying to navigate airline lost and found deleted), and kind of figured it was an omen....

 

Thanks again all.

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Jean]

"slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"

 

Like many other Art objects, and that's where mending/fixing comes into picture, good thing but at the condition that it is done correctly, many art objects were disfigured by enthusiastic people thinking of well doing ... "there's the rub"

[Lorenzo]

Sorry to jump in, but I wished to see the pictures on the first post but they doesn't show to me.. just my problem? :?

[Mark Green]

I like the first tsuba.

[Lorenzo]

....yes, because I still don't see it

 

Can somebody post the pictures on the forum instead of links?

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, I was following this thread as I got in port for the night. I would like to see the re-patination efforts and let us judge independently. As we come to differing views we like to establish our credibility which is fine, but, it's not a competition, just merely to illustrate some degree of fluency in the subject. That being said, direct denigration of someones work or praise thereof is not helpful. A sensible arguement showing the reason and/or cause that such and such is good or bad to do to a tsuba would be more helpful. Thanks. Lorenzo, I hope this helps. John

[Lorenzo]

Thank you John.

[Brian]

Ok, by request this topic is open again. However any comments or posts that veer off the original topic even slightly..consider them gone.

 

Brian

[reinhard]

For consideration: Works predating Meiji-period don't look like this:

 

reinhard

[Steve Waszak]

For consideration: Works predating Meiji-period don't look like this:

 

Hi Reinhard,

 

I'm just a little confused: when you say "this" in the above sentence, could you specify exactly what you're referring to? Thanks.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[reinhard]

I'm just a little confused: when you say "this" in the above sentence, could you specify exactly what you're referring to? Thanks.

 

Sorry for confusion. I was referring to the shape(s) of the seppa-dai.

In order to create a well-balanced set of fittings for koshirae, the seppa-dai of the tsuba should have a symmetrical shape (let's put Ko-Akasaka aside for the moment). Otherwise it will be covered by the seppa only partially and will produce an ugly impression of carelessness. Another possibility consists in making the seppa-dai area part of the (sukashi-)design and not defining it by intention. That's OK too. Following these rules was probably quite natural for TsubaKo making tsuba which were eventually to become part of a koshirae. When there was no need for good koshirae anymore, approximative and careless shaping of seppa-dai became possible, for these tsuba didn't need to harmonize with seppa or even an entire koshirae anymore.

 

This is a much simplified explanation of a complex matter. Seeing many good tsuba and koshirae will give you a feel for it.

 

reinhard

[Steve Waszak]

Thanks for the explanation, Reinhard. Very interesting and thought-provoking. ;o)

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Henry Wilson]

let's put Ko-Akasaka aside for the moment

 

How were Ko Akasaka tsuba mounted? Was the koshirae shape modified to make-up for unsymmetrical seppa dai?

[Ford Hallam]

I have to agree with you Reinhard. The point you make is an extremely valid one. You mention the Ko-Akasaka as a possible exception, I suspect there may well be other exceptions to the rule (Kamakura-bori and Heian-jo guards can often be a little "irregular" in the way seppa-dai are defined also) but in principle this aspect you've detailed would be well worth bearing in mind whenever we evaluate any tsuba.

 

Certainly, in my view, the second tsuba seems to show that it's maker wasn't all that concerned with how it fitted into a koshirae.

[Martin]

How were Ko Akasaka tsuba mounted? Was the koshirae shape modified to make-up for unsymmetrical seppa dai?

 

Hi Henry,

 

I guess Reinhard is referring to the sometimes unusual shapes of the Seppa-Dai in early Akasaka work (tapering to the top or elongated and slender in shape).

[Henry Wilson]

Hi Martin

 

that is what I think. My question is would this tapering influence the shape of the saya / tsuka or would the "ugly impression of carelessness" created by a tapered seppa-dai be allowed for Ko Akasaka and other tsuba schools.

[sanjuro]

Henry

 

It would appear that the tsuka/saya cross section is not influenced by the tapering seppa dai of a tsuba, be it Akasaka or any other style. The saya of shinto blades has always in my experience been of a more or less regular oval shape. The early koto saya on the other hand was a more flattened oval or slightly 'egg' shaped and these shapes can be seen reflected in the seppa dai of some older tsuba, particularly tachi tsuba. One would expect that the seppa dai shape followed the saya guchi and tsuka shape rather than the other way around.

It had not occurred to me before,(one of those things that by being obvious is overlooked), but this is probably why I have never successfully mounted a sword with an Akasaka tsuba. On the two occasions I have attempted it, using the best possible tsuba and appropriate tosogu, the result always appeared untidy and mismatched because the appropriate seppa overhung the seppa dai of the tsuba and looked rather ungainly. It is an interesting point that has been raised in this discussion.

[Lorenzo]

This is getting interesting. A further prove could come from a top view of a same period fuchi