Where and how to start

[Chishiki]

Hi Chris,

From memory, and I am not 100% sure, but I think Han Bing Siong wrote an article for one of the sword societies. A number of the swords were 'not right'.

 

As to Robinson and his book, at the time I think this was a real gem for collectors who were starved of information in english. I don't agree with people rubbishing this man and what he tried to do for the sword collectors of the time. The advice on repatination of metal work was unfortunate.

 

Mark

[sanjuro]

Hmmmmm.... I am not usually given to retraction. However, on re reading what has been described as my vitriolic comments concerning Mr Robinson's book, I am obliged by fairness to concede my agreement. I do not retract my general opinion, but rather my way of expressing it. I am aware of the Value of the work done by Mr Robinson and I take nothing away from his efforts to impart the knowledge of his time to the masses. He was one of very few english authors of the time that had knowledge of nihonto. That his recommendations have been proven somewhat misguided by subsequent improved information does not take away the value of what he did. Nor does the fact that some of the swords he describes have subsequently been proven to be gimei, cast any shadow on his work. As a book for beginners however, his volume does portray some potentially dangerous practices. Therein lies a significant caveat.

 

We do indeed gain value from those who went before us, and we owe them thanks for casting light in the darkness of ignorance. And yes, who knows how our knowledge may be judged by future generations. In context of his time Mr Robinson was an outstanding light in the world of Nihonto, and I wish to do him and his reputation no injustice.

[paulb]

Thank you Keith for the modification of your point.

Lee,

you are right regarding the value to the beginner and potential problems, I was addressing the more general comments about Robinson and his book not the value or otherwise to the beginner which was the original question. I agree that if read in isolation by a novice there is potential to do harm. I am not sure it would figure in my top 4 or 5 titles for a beginner. I think it is something which does contain some useful information and, a little more sentimentally, that it deserves its place on my book shelf as part of our own development in this field.

I hope this clarifes my answer a little.

regards

paul

[Lee Bray]

No worries, Paul.

I just figured that since this was a beginners book thread, we should stick to that.

Mr.Robinson's book has been given so much comment now, it's probably the first book newcomers to the field will buy.

[sanjuro]

At the beginning of this thread Chris Bowen suggested that perhaps a recommendation by one of the martial artists concerning an english text on swordsmanship, may be worth reading. If one is to have an appreciation of the sword, then it is useful to know how the samurai viewed it, not only as a weapon but also as a symbol of his calling in life and the instrument by which he would most likely meet his end. The philosophy of the sword and the rituals and mystique surrounding it do indeed have value, and their origins are to be found with the men who used them.

Since I saw so vehemently to criticise a book by a scholar, perhaps I might make amends as a martial artist of some twenty years study, by recommending a couple of books that deal with swordsmanship.

 

On a general basis Japanese Swordsmanship by Donn F Draeger and Gordon Warner, describes modern sword practice and lore.

On a ryu basis, The Sword and the Mind by Hiruaki Sato describes the philosophy and techniques of the Yagyu Ryu.

Lastly, the three volumes of The Deity and the Sword by Risuke Otake describes the techniques and philosophy of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

All these books deal with the care and handling of a sword from a practical point of view, as well as the sometimes brutal details of a sword in combative use. Equally importantly they deal with the mindset of the warrior. You may view your swords a little differently after reading such books, but you will also have a deeper respect for them in all respects, as art, as artifacts and as weapons. :D

[Eric H]

Robinson has never described one of those blades displayed on the photos...therefore never a comment on authenticity... only sword type, if signed or attributed, from which collection eventually, and the indication of the smith's working period.

 

As I have pointed out earlier most of his book is an abstract from Honami Koson‘s work, who was a recognised expert and connoisseur at that time.

 

Robinson‘s book BTW is nowadays rarely available.

 

Eric

[paulb]

Eric,

thats because sentimental oldies like me hang on to them

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers Keith :D ...for being a gentleman.

 

The Deity and the Sword has been reissued as a single volume now, by Koryu books. There's a fair bit of supplemental material too. To really get an appreciation of how katana were wielded by warriors 600 years ago I think you can do no better then to watch Otake Risuke Shihan perform kata or paired form with a partner and bokken. There are a number of videos on youtube.

[Brian]

I wonder in years to come whether others will be as uncharitable about our efforts as we appear to be about his.

Regards

Paul

Paul,

Some don't want to wait years..they are already busy with that now

 

Brian

[paulb]

Aint that the truth :lol:

[Henry Wilson]

Concerning THE ART OF THE Japanese SWORD, B.W. Robinson.

 

I gleaned some these quotes from members which reflect my own opinion when I initially posted and it appears others agree it is not the most suitable book for beginners. I meant no disrespect to Mr Robinson and his legacy when I made my initial post.

 

I agree that if read in isolation by a novice there is potential to do harm. I am not sure it would figure in my top 4 or 5 titles for a beginner.

 

The advice on repatination of metal work was unfortunate.

 

as this is a thread on where to begin reading for beginners, I have to ask, "How does a beginner make that selection?"

A beginner doesn't have the necessary knowledge to differentiate the good from the bad.

[reinhard]

Robinson has never described one of those blades displayed on the photos...therefore never a comment on authenticity...

 

That's what makes this book a danger and a waste of time, especially for beginners. They are sitting in front of bad pictures apparently depicting blades of the most famous smiths of all time without knowing that most of them are not genuine. Some, if not many of these blades are not even typical for the big names they are supposed to represent. It's true: Mr. Robinson did not comment on authenticity. Unfortunately he took it for granted.

 

reinhard

[Ford Hallam]

Reinhard,

 

do you really think those relatively small images of blades are all that misleading? I can't imagine any beginner will be forming acute impressions of blade shapes and styles at that first exposure to an introductory book like this. Similarly, whether they are gimei or not is also irrelevant. They are really not much more than general examples of the varieties of blades one would likely encounter. I seriously doubt anyone would be using it as a guide to kantei.

[Jean]

THE ART OF THE Japanese SWORD, B.W. Robinson. It was written 50 years ago; since a lot of things have changed, knowledge has improved a lot. (First published in 1961)

 

This book was the second book I bought, and was in my opinion far better than the Yumoto which was my first Nihonto book.

 

Yes Appendix D should be deleted by fear some people (as myself) indulge in some experiment as I did forty years ago (it was a poor tsuba - RIP ).

 

Now considering the rest of the book, it is a small survey and introduction to Japanese Nihonto world. It gives an idea of the complexity of the study and also talks about Tosogu/kodogu. Well made taking into account the number of pages. It is the most difficult thing to do : summurazing a huge subject and giving an overall view of it. A lot of people later on, in light of knowledge improvement, shall say - Blades are gimei - this smith did other kind of swords - he did not make the difference between Rai Kunitoshi and Niji Kunitoshi...

Criticism is easy to do 50 years later but, at the time this book was written, few people on the board had heard of Nihonto - so I think we must be grateful for Robbie having introduced us in Europe to the Nihonto world. BTW, there are a lot of Japanese books on the subject which contain at least a lot of inexactitude, errors ...

Robbie did not invent anything. he started from what was considered at that time as reliable Japanese sources, in fact it is these sources which should be criticised ...

 

Now, in 50 years, what do people shall think about what is written on the subject nowadays.

 

Considering the pictures at the end of the book, my comments are simple:as a newbie, when I first saw them, they made me dream, not because of their mei, but they were real Nihonto.

 

A real newbie has never heard (or so little) of Masamune, Sadamune, Motohira, Sukemune (Suruga or Bizen?) and from the published pictures he just can say: that is a sword. They know nothing about hada, hamon, hataraki ...

In fact, I am ready to bet that if some people on the board had read this book from the start, they won't have bought their first Chinese fake

[sanjuro]

Jean.

 

Judging by some of the questions asked by newbies with shiny new chinese fakes they had just bought, If they had read ANY book before buying, they would not have bought a chinese fake!

[Chishiki]

Jean wrote...

Considering the pictures at the end of the book, my comments are simple:as a newbie, when I first saw them, they made me dream, not because of their mei, but they were real Nihonto."

 

 

I think so many collectors had that dream when reading this book....me included. You summed up the book perfectly. We move on....

 

Mark

[sanjuro]

It puzzles me why we are bogged down discussing one book, an out of date book at that, when this thread is really about what we recommend as reading for beginners. It is not uncommon for discussions on the NMB to get sidetracked into some pointles discussion of a minor point of preference, but for heavens sake there are hundreds of books out there, some of which we could be recommending instead of petty point making over any single volume. Can we move on please?

[Henry Wilson]

There is a strong smell of something that smells like sentimentality in the air. I really miss my ZX Spectrum 48k :D

 

Are tsuba books allowed? If so what about TSUBA: AN AESTHETIC STUDY?

I think it is a very good tsuba collectors beginner book especially the intro "Intrinsic value of Tsuba". The AKASAKA School gets a thrashing though which is very odd....

[Jean]

There is a strong smell of something that smells like sentimentality in the air

 

You are right Henry, because, by definition, that's what collecting is all about.

[IanB]

Whilst I agree the Basil Robinson's book is now long outdated and no longer really suited for a beginner, but, in its era it was virtually all there was that was readily available. Yes, his recommendations for de-rusting iron tsuba seems horrendous to us now. However, I don't think he was the first to suggest it. I seem to think it originated with Commander Newman in his general book on Japanese art. Using boot polish or other wax on a tsuba is not be what would be done today, but it washes off easily enough with solvent and how much harm did it really do? In all probability very little and it may well have saved some tsuba from further rusting. As for using duraglit, remember that at that time almost every blade one came across in general antique shops were more or less rusty or otherwise abused. Contact with Japan to get a blade re-polished was, for the ordinary collector, about as likely as reaching Mars on a pogo stick. At least using duraglit got the rust off without scratching what was left of the polish or removing any more than a microscopic amount of metal. Try ruining the shape of a blade with duraglit if you don't believe me. I note that nobody has mentioned B.W. Robinson's 'Primer of Japanese Sword Blades'. Although not as readily available, it at least tried to set out the basic styles and schools. I remember having a wakizashi bought for my Christmas present and then sitting with Robinson's Primer trying to read the signature. It was 'Tadayoshi' and I can still remember the absolute thrill and sense of achievement I experience.

It is easy to denigrate these early efforts but in reality they were monumental achievements.

Ian Bottomley

[reinhard]

My dear Hobbit-friends,

 

Strange things are going on in the Shire. Posts are deleted without comment or PM and threads are mutilated (like this one). You better prepare for what's to come. Bye.

 

reinhard

[doug e lewis]

Reinhard-san, I am always prepared to be 86ed from anywhere.

 

I noticed that there has been no mention of Dr. Stein's web site. It may be overwelming to some with the amount of information there, but great for a beginner. Just follow his links.

 

BW Robinson's "A Primer of Japanese Sword-Blades" 1955, was given to me by my sayashi friend, Mike V., along with all his back copies of the Southern California Japanese Sword Society's newsletter. The Robinson was way over my head, but the newsletter was great, even if some articles are still not fully comprended by me.

 

My biggest problem is not having held enough swords. Lots of pix, but as often pointed out on NMB, pix are no substitute for the real blade in your hand to see utsuri, get the differences in sori from era to era, etc.

 

Doug e.

[Brian]

My dear Hobbit-friends,

Strange things are going on in the Shire.

My dear Reinhard,

Things are not nearly as chicken-little as you may perceive them.

Posts are deleted without comment or PM and threads are mutilated (like this one).

Isn't that exactly what I said I would be doing to limit controversy and needless bickering?

You better prepare for what's to come

I already have a stockpile of fresh water, K-rats and ammunition. You think I need more?

 

 

Brian

[doug e lewis]

You need a good book to read, Brian. Lots of suggestions

 

Doug e

 

ps. Do I have to sign my name twice?

[Brian]

Doug,

I think logically, those whose real names are their usernames, don't need to sign all posts.

Back to the topic now folks...or are we done with this one?

 

Brian

[Henry Wilson]

What about fittings books?

[sanjuro]

Henry

 

I cant think of anyone better than yourself to start the ball rolling and suggest a good beginners book on fittings. Not just tsuba, but tosogu in general.

[doug e lewis]

Yes, please, tosogu books for beginners, like me [or smarter], and teppo, and pole arms, and armor. I would love to have guidence on beginner's books for all. A friend who does restoration work and collects tsuba and menuki, reluctantly after much begging and promises not to eat or drink anything while looking thru it (and vows to handle the pages gently) loaned me his Joley (is that correct) book on tsuba. Great stuff even if not well organized. But that book, even if it was available, would be above my pay grade.

 

Since I have most of the beginners sword books mentioned above -- which I must read again before going to next level --- I can budget my meager allowance (we are saving to put in a well) for books on tosogu, etc.

 

I have some general books that touch on pole arms, teppo, tosogu --- a couple by Clive Sinclaire and some Stephen Turnbull come to mind, but I would love to have something more focused to a specific area. And not too pricey, for the above reason.

 

Thanks for all your help NMB members.

[sanjuro]

The voice of those who thirst for knowledge..........

[rkg]

Hi,

 

There's actually surprisingly little written in English for the tosogu collector, let alone for the beginning tosogu collector (I keep thinking a writing decent primer on tosogu appreciation

would be something to do, but...). It doesn't help any that there are a number of somewhat orthogonal aspects to be concerned with (artistic, construction, functional/usage,

historic/ethnographic, etc), and a lot of what is in English look like coffee table books with surprisingly little additional insight into these concerns (or worse, like Robinson's book, suggest

er,uh, "questionable" conservation techniques (I still cringe when I think about his advice to burn tsuba to take care of them...)), so you end up having to dig through a lot of books for

little pieces of insight. It also doesn't help any that some of the classifications are somewhat arbitrary (having been invented mostly to be able to sell stuff) and/or in need of

revision (a lot of "important" pieces were parts of family/shrine collections and have really only recently become available to people researching these beasties), or possibly just explanation to

us gaijin (I've seen many cases the answers to something we all 'wonder' about is either somewhat common knowledge among advanced collectors in Japan

or is in a book somewhere - in Japanese... There are tooo many books where 3 pages of description in Japanese gets boiled down to "Tsuba, Iron, XXX theme, Momoyama Period" for the

english "translation".....).

 

I also think that sometimes collectors spend too much time trying to "bin" pieces rather than grok them - I actually found that sword book that

Paul Martin just translated very refreshing in that in addition to the usual fundamental "stuff", it focused far more on what makes a "good" piece rather than identifying minor and esoteric differences that would aid you in binning it (if you happen know what you are looking at - so how does that help the beginner again?...) (I'd actually recommend reading this and going and looking at some swords before

buying/studying Nagayama's tome, but I digress). Also, as with swords, I also would posit that making an effort to go physically look at some good pieces might be a better way to spend

money than buying countless books on the subject, or even buying poor quality "starter" pieces. Those coffee table books are actually kind of misleading in this respect because tosogu can look

VERY different depending on the lighting conditions, there are huge issues with gamut and color control, etc.

 

That said, depending on your interests, there are some fairly succinct (if perhaps debatable) and not too expensive "starter" books beyond the bits and pieces in Sato's/Robinson's books, etc. - Torigoye/Haynes's "Tsuba An Aesthetic Study" (is the NCJSC still pprinting this?), Harry's Koza translation, and actually stuff like Haynes's catalogs and Benson's "Bushido" magazines come to mind off the top of my head, as does Sasano's books if you are "into" iron tsuba (though due to the controversy about his dating you might need to take that with a grain of salt).

 

It might also be useful to understand the times these pieces were being produced in, so another good" beginner" thing to study would be Japanese history (I slugged through Sansom's books,

maybe somebody else has a better suggestion these days) and how the fittings were used - there are books on swordsmanship, or you can actually research this yourself by taking up iaido, etc.

 

Its funny - I'm also interested in polearms, and they suffer somewhat from the same problem. you could probably start with Knutsen's newest polearm book though.

 

I don't have any good gun/armor book suggestions - hopefully somebody else does....

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)