Can "high end" coexist with "low end" ?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

with us common, 99.999%, low end, folk.

 

C'mon Eric don't overstimate yourself. Not sure you belong to the vast majority of this board.

[IanB]

Eric, A very nice quality katabira and a rarity these days. No doubt such things were common enough but not preserved like conventional armour.

Clive, Thank you for posting the haramaki picture, I was in rather a rush and was too lazy to find it. Hope to see you at Birmingham.

 

Just a comment or two in support of Eric's view. Prior to the 1540's the ashigaru were despised individuals whose role was really that of bulking up the forces. Give them guns (or spears) and a few weeks or months training and they had the potential to defeat the best traditional armies of the time. But imagine the change in attitude the bushi had to make towards these despised commoners. They not only had to recognise that they were an effective force and could kill them, but that their own role was now to actually support and protect these plebs in battle. They also recognised that these forces needed to be properly equipped to perform their function effectively. Hence the supply of weapons and armour to these troops. Yes, the equipment wasn't the finest quality in the sense that the bushi's armour was, nor could it be. The sheer quantity needed dictated that, but, it was well though out and effective. A simple dou, a jingasa of iron or nerigawa and sleeves, enough to offer reasonable protection and simple enough to mass-produce. Consider the ashigaru armour shown above. It is of iron, an expensive material and lacquered. Almost all these armours were laced with hemp and had hemp cloth for the sleeves - not as expensive as fancy Chinese brocade, but a costly material nevertheless and one that lasted far longer. This kind of equipment was revolutionary in its day and because it was commonplace by the Meiji period, scrapped in vast quantities. The armour Eric shows is now more rare than the armours worn by the bushi and should be treasured.

Ian Bottomley

[Brian]

Nobody has to remove anything from their profile, and I'll be the judge of who is overly commercial. In this case, he isn't at all.

That ice gets thinner every day.

 

Brian

[Eric H]

Clive, Thank you for posting the haramaki picture,

Clive (Sinclaire)?, no, it is T. Sinclair... just to be correct

Eric

[IanB]

Mr. T. Sinclair, So sorry, an automatic response to seeing your surname. Equally thank you so much for the picture as I said, I had to dash out and rather than search for the image decided the point I was making would stand without. I hope you can see how sober the armour is - it certainly isn't built for show. I don't think anyone would really guess what horrors lie under the lacquer.

Ian

[estcrh]

Eric.

 

As you point out, I am by confession no expert in Katchu. One does not however, need to be an expert to assess something from an intellectual point of view rather than an emotive one. I have made no judgement on the quality of the example in question because I am not knowledgeable enough to make such a judgement. My brain however works relatively well, and be it only an opinion, I stand by what I have said, purely from a standpoint of comparative reasoning. Sure, I have little love or respect for Edo period items generally speaking, but that does not preclude me from acknowledging the fine things that were produced in that period. I may be somewhat biased but I am not utterly blind.

Perhaps you might bear in mind that an alternative opinion to yours is not a personal affront. Both carlo and I seem to have offended you by not agreeing with you. Life is like that. Lighten up!

 

Keith, I read your posts and find a lot that I agree with and a lot of good ideas and thoughts, on this one point we do not agree at all....I can not write off the samurai of the Edo period or the armor or weapons of the period as being sub par junk and the possessions of decadent fools and I do not agree with the general portrayal of the Edo period as a "peacefull" era that resembled a huge hippie love fest.

 

While the times when thousands of fighters were slaughtered in a single battle eventually ended, all warlike societies when faced with a peace time lull still remain battle ready for a period of time not knowing when war might break out again. It is easy for us to say that Japan was peaceful but the Japanese of the time had no idea how long peace would last.

 

If America were to keep out of wars for lets say 50 or 100 yrs ( like that would ever happen ) or lets say 200 yrs like in Japan but still trained soldiers and maintained weapons and armies I do not think a U.S.soldiers ability to kill would take very long to surface..boys will be boys after all. But my main point is and was that denigrating people ( and the objects they study) who are interested in a certain time period of Japans history (even ww2) is counter productive to the efforts of understanding the totality of the samurai era from beginning to end.

 

I myself am more interested in the Edo period and can relate to the Japanese civil war as my country had its own civil war in which 500,000 people died compared to just thousands in Japan, and in the U.S. every item down to a single bullet, button or scrap of a uniform is collected and not considered to be worthless junk. I am interested in the armor and weapons that were used right at the end of the samurai era including the more primitive or recycled weapons and armor scrounged during the last few years and by the intrigue of the different rivals and foreign interventionists.

 

The whole point of my post before it was turned into an attack about the items that in my opinion are high and low end was that in my world the high end and low end from ALL samurai eras are interconnected and at least in my collection can and do go together quite well....one right next to the other and can be appreciated accordingly.

 

By the way..I try to read EVERYTHING Carlos and even Reinhard post..(and everyone else here also)....and despite some philosophical differences etc, I can and do learn from their postings, I hope they can be open minded enough to do the same or at least try to understand were other people may be coming from.

[drbvac]

Well said - a guy told me that if we are working together and agree on everything one of us is unnecessary. Everyone has a perspective and a point - different from facts - they are usually not for debate, but likes and dislikes are what makes us all unique and to shut oneself off from other perspectives tends to make you flat.

[doug e lewis]

Eric, Thank you for sharing the high & low ends of samurai armor. I know I have enjoyed the lively discussion your post started. Ya just never know on the NMB.

 

I agree that both have their place in collecting, not only as cultual artifacts, but as art. Even the simple armor of the ashigaru has a certain rustic artistic quality to it. Sort of like American folk art or craftsman school.

 

Everybody's tastes and financial status are different, however, so not every nihonto collector will collect the foot soldier's armorment. Some can afford to get it all and do, or that same well off collector may just focus his collecting to the high end for reasons of taste. Others, like myself, can only afford low end so that's what I get; hopefully to trade up to better stuff; or save and get that great papered sword or tsuba someday.

 

I learn from every fake piece indentified by NMB mermbers cause they give their reasins why. Conversely, when the aspects of a true piece are discussed I can get a sense of what to look for in real nihonto. Thanks all.

 

My 1 cent [inflation]

 

Doug

[reinhard]

What was this all about? A "general NihonTO discussion" (i.e. a general discussion about Japanese swords)? Certainly not. A promo stunt? Maybe. A waste of time? Certainly.

There are boards where Japanese armour is discussed and Eric is eagerly participating there already. That should do.

 

There is much confusion and a big need of basic knowledge when it comes to swords alone on NMB, which is what this particular forum is dedicated to. Let's stick to this main topic. Discussing a Ashigaru-style armour from mid-18th century won't get us anywhere.

 

BTW There seems to be an increasing tendency of reducing reasonable questions to:

 

"Do I like it or not and what does does this particular specimen mean to me, emotionally?"

 

Nobody cares. Quality is not a subject matter.

 

reinhard

[doug e lewis]

Reinhard,

I would think that ashigaru armor is " generally nihonto related". Yeah, as a guilty one of offering "I like this or that" or "feelings", you have a good point, Reinhard, and I will restrain myself from giving those types of opinions that likely are interesting only to me.

 

I know next to nothing about Japanese armor so anything is a great treat and learning opportunity to me. But again to your point. So what is a good forum for me to go to learn about such non-nihonto stuff?

 

I, of course, expect you to point out that I know less that next to nothing about nihonto, or anything related to it, and should probably not venture any comment of opinion on the sacred NMB. You may be right ----- but I won't stop. I will try to be more to the point, and ask more questions rather than voice MHO about something. I do know a little, a mote of knowledge compared to yourself and many other NMB posters, but the only way I can learn if I am getting something right is to post my humble observations and be confirmed or corrected.

 

So please skip over my posts so you are not offended, of let the moderators delete them if they like, or block me. I've been 86'ed from worse places for lesser reasons.

 

Okay, back to Nihonto 101.

 

doug e

[reinhard]

Doug, my latest post wasn't adressed to you in particular. It just happened you posted while I was still writing.

 

reinhard

[watsonmil]

Dear Members,

It is my understanding upon reading the different sections that make up the NMB, ... the section Eric ( Estcrh ) has posted under is and I quote : NMB GENERAL Japanese DISCUSSION , " For the discussion of all topics related to Nihonto, collecting, the Samurai, Japanese Art or Japanese history that are not covered below " To those members whom it may concern, ... LIKE IT OR NOT, .... note the words ... " Japanese Art ", ..., " Japanese History ", .... " not covered below ". Since your interest and lack of contribution to learning in any field but Nihonto preclude you from intelligent contribution in any other " related " field , ... and since you are so narrow of mind to see anything .. but that what you can criticize even if in error sometimes by the way in your own field of expertise, ... why not just worry your minds to the sections you do find interesting, ... and leave your bias out of what others might and indeed do enjoy. There is always the alternative of forming your own board where the two or three of you can educate, entertain one another with your superiority. You sure as hell do not impress me nor most members. When and if you should become owner of this forum, ... then you may make the rules, ... until such time, at least read the bloody rules before imposing your narrow minded dribble on the rest of us who do want to share and learn.

 

... Ron Watson

[doug e lewis]

Reinhard san,

 

Thank you for your kind reply to my post. It wasn't really directed at you; well, maybe a little. Your post just pushed a button --- other posts in other threads have seemed to lead me to that very unproductive rant.

 

And posting while others are still composing their thoughts is a problem I have notice here before. So it goes. We all live in different time zones, and in Nobody's, Mr. Turner's, and other's cases, even different days! I actually look forward to your commentary on any nihonto or nihonto "related" post you have the time and interest to respond to.

 

Mr.Watson san, your posts have opened up a whole new world of "nihonto related" interest for me in the Japanese arquebus (teppon, correct?). I was aware of them, of course, and the extent they were used and gradually changed the tactics of battle, but the variety and beauty of them I had ignored for a long time. My friend who gave me "The craft of the Japanese Sword", jump starting my interest in nihonto, even occasionally showed me guns he was restoring, but I was stuck on swords & fittings! Thank you!

 

Doug

[Jean]

There is much confusion and a big need of basic knowledge when it comes to swords alone on NMB, which is what this particular forum is dedicated to

 

I entirely agree with you Reinhard, that is why I would like you to pass on your knowledge in a more gentle manner.

 

A lot of people on this board have some Nihonto knowledge (some of them, outstanding) and I am much more for the maieutic method. It makes people think. I don't like to give straight answers because one does not easily learn from this method. I prefer questionning people.

 

"You say this sword is good/high end : Ok, for what reasons" is rather my style.

 

I stated once, in a post, that grooves were added later to a sword and I had the very good surprise to have a PM from a newbie, asking why? He had the answer but wanted to be conforted in his reasonning. That was a good basic start.

[Nihonto Chicken]

What was this all about? A "general NihonTO discussion" (i.e. a general discussion about Japanese swords)? Certainly not. A promo stunt? Maybe. A waste of time? Certainly.

There are boards where Japanese armour is discussed and Eric is eagerly participating there already. That should do.

 

I believe the title of this particular forum is "General Nihonto Related Discussion" (really, look at the header). It seems to me that historical protective apparel specifically made to resist the cut of nihonto well falls under the realm of "General Nihonto Related Discussion". Am I in error? I note as well that the thread author began his inquiry with the following, "It is easier for me to use armor as an example but this applies to to nihonto as well in many ways." So the original question was framed in general, pointedly including nihonto, but using armor as a particular example. Again, this appears to me to be "General Nihonto Related Discussion", and I happened to respond with respect to a couple of gunto I have. Again, am I in error here? I have enjoyed reading the responses, excepting, of course, the intermittent bouts of intolerance (which is in major part a point of the initial question). The only waste of time has been the post declaring this thread to be a waste of time. I might suggest it could be best that the author of that post just simply move on, silently.

[estcrh]

Rick B, I am glad that you have an understanding of the point I was making in my post. When I read the forum posts whether it is George commenting on ww2 smiths, Ian talking about his experiences in the world of museums, Ron or Piers passing on some unique info or pictures, or any of the many interesting people who drop in and share pictures or ask or answer questions about nihonto and related subjects I know that for awhile I will be entertained and possibly learn something new. In return I try to share something from time to time that someone will find interesting and possibly learn from.

 

I see samurai armor as being integral to the weapons and have always been interested in both subjects since the weapons often had to defeat a man wearing armor and the armor was made to defend against a man with a weapon. Even when not being used they represented the owners status and class.

 

The forum has specific categories and people can read the posts in the categories that interest them and ignore the rest...I read all the categories and have benefited greatly.

[estcrh]

 

reinhard (bad enlightener and obviously not much better in sharing his knowledge)

You certainly knew your faults when you posted that...it still holds true. Lets see you start a post of you own and show me that you have some game instead of biting at my heels like a little yap dog ( God I hate those things!!) Who let the dogs out???

[estcrh]

 

"You say this sword is good/high end : Ok, for what reasons" is rather my style.

 

 

Jean, I did think it was rather strange that none of the people questioning my assertion that a certain armor was "high end" cared to ask my opinion as to why I felt the armors were "high end". If you notice, they did not even ask what my opinion of "high end" was. Was I referring to the price, the quality or rarity? They had no curiosity???? strange. The nattering nabobs of negativism seem to have some kind of agenda other then learning and or teaching.

[Lee Bray]

Lee, we wont be around to find out but your probably more right than you realize.

 

My point being, will those fake, Chinese tsuba be collectible items in 200 years time?

It's one thing to be old, it's another to be old and have quality.

If they are collectible, what will they show?

Will there be a forum in 200 years time saying, "Look at my lovely Chinese tsuba from 2010. How does it compare with a Ford Hallam or a Kawashima Yoshiyuki piece?"

 

Gentlemen.

Can we stop the bickering?

Do half a dozen negative comments criticizing a negative comment really help anyone?

At 39, I thought I was one of the youngest members of this forum. I'm honestly not so sure anymore.

This is my favourite forum, especially since I've been invalided off work for the past 2 1/2 years.

The way it is continuing, Brian's threats to close it down are starting to appeal.

[sanjuro]

Objectivity has been totally replaced by subjectivity in this thread. I think Lee has a very valid point. Its one thing for us to disagree about a topic and discuss it rationally, but when the members start choosing sides and sniping at each other, then any useful discussion is long lost. I particularly take a great dislike in reading one members' opinion of another. Personally, I couldnt care less if two members have a dislike of one another, nor do I care about the reasons they dont like each other. Making it public is juvenile. Its also unnecessary and unproductive.

[estcrh]

Its easy to do........ Just stop posting to it before the mods shut it down!

 

Its the people who do not have an interest REAL interest in the post who should stop posting and they should start a post of their own on a subject that interests them. A couple of people who just want to disrupt a dialog should not get their way..it sets a BAD Precedent. No one seems to be having a problem with this post other then the USUAL suspects and if they are allowed to succeed then inevitably this will happen all over again in a different post. Placating bullies NEVER works it only emboldens them.

[sanjuro]

I rest my case.

[Brian]

Allow me to rest the entire issue.

And from now on, I will be deleting posts as i see fit, with no explanation or notice. If I feel it is headed down the wrong road, consider it gone.

Anyone disagreeing with that can find one of those "invite only" forums and see if they allow it.

 

Brian