Can "high end" coexist with "low end" ?

[estcrh]

It is easier for me to use armor as an example but this applies to to nihonto as well in many ways. Recently I came across 2 really rare high end armors of the type I am interested in, with all matching pieces and both in really incredible condition. While I could have afforded to purchase them, I hesitated due to the fact that they were in such good condition and owning such items for me at least comes with a big responsibility to make sure they stay in the excellent condition they were in. Also for the price ( equal to a VERY nice sports car) I could buy quite a few armor pieces and weapons etc that while not nearly as pristine, to me are just as interesting if not more so.

 

I opted to pass on them and while they sat unsold for quite awhile both have now gone to new owners..I have pictures of both armors and hope the new owners can take care of them in the manner they deserve. The armors I usually purchase are of the more low grade type worn by the average Joe samurai, and due to the fact that they are rather plain and unadorned have become almost as rare to find as the high end pristine examples since they were (and still are not) very highly valued and most were allowed to deteriorate to the point were they really are junk now.

 

I just personally like samurai items that were owned by the average everyday samurai and Ashigaru, some people like the items owned by Daimyou and high ranking samurai but both types put together represent the real history and paint a more complete picture of the times and country they came from. Even junk armor can teach a lesson in construction, materials etc (if the price reflects the condition) to someone with that type of interest and to people who want to recreate their own armor.

 

Both high end and low end can and should be appreciated and I hold the deepest respect for anyone who sacrifices to reach a higher level of understanding in ANY field then I am currently at. Disagreeing is normal but we are really on the same team are we not? Just trying to learn something new and pass on what we know to other people at the same time....in the short time we have been allotted to us.

 

The high end from http://www.winterjapaneseart.com/ ........... and the low end from me.

 

 

 

 

[paulb]

Eric,

thank you for the armour images they look very interesting. In response to your question I think that high and low end not only can exist together but are essential for each others survival. This is fundemental in all area whether it be buying a house a Japanese sword or anything else.

As you rightly say the whole illustrates the full spectrum of history and are therefore of equal importance and merit. Also we are all different and different things appeal to different people.

I think the key is to know what it is you are buying, and buying it for what it is. Problems occur when someone buys something at the low end in the belief they are gaining a high end piece.

[cabowen]

This might be the same basic question I asked- art or artifact. Generally, low end is lacking in craftsmanship/artistic value, but still has historical appeal. High end has a lot of both in most cases...

[drbvac]

I agree: Throughout history, many high end articles of all types were preserved because of their inherent value at the time they were made as well as their artistic merit and craftsmanship. Although now very expensive these are still here and often in museums or kept within wealthy families. In most cases it is the day to day items, the less costly available to many that are lost forever in waste dumps all over the earth.

 

When there is an exciting archeological find these days it is not the gold ring and crown worn by the king a thousand years ago it is the shard of pottery found in the ruins of a kitchen,

 

So of course there is a place for both and considering the cost of the "high end" stuff , damn few of us can afford to collect it or if we do - we have one example instead of 2~. If one is really lucky you could have examples of both to see the difference money and standing gave several hundred years ago, yet in the end both often had the same function.

[Jean]

Yes both are History.

 

One has seen a lot of battle fields and not the other : the difference between everyday suit and Sunday one :D

[estcrh]

Yes both are History.

 

One has seen a lot of battle fields and not the other : the difference between everyday suit and Sunday one :D

 

Yes exactly, art is in the eye of the beholder but history is not.

 

Generally, low end is lacking in craftsmanship/artistic value

Low end was not made to attract the man with money, it was made to do the job, to lure the rich buyer ( who might not even actually use or need the object) you have to add flashy colors and a sense of extravagance , its just that some people are more susceptible to the "bait?" Things have not changed much as even now a house is much more marketable with a slab of marble in the kitchen and a swimming pool.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Generally, low end is lacking in craftsmanship/artistic value, but still has historical appeal. High end has a lot of both in most cases...

 

 

art is in the eye of the beholder but history is not. ...OMISSIS... Low end was not made to attract the man with money, it was made to do the job, to lure the rich buyer ( who might not even actually use or need the object) you have to add flashy colors and a sense of extravagance , its just that some people are more susceptible to the "bait?"

 

Guess we should talk about the connection between quality and purpose. I've put together the two statemets to highlight this aspect.

 

Eric, do you really believe that a wealthy Samurai of any fighting period was only interested in "flashy colors" and not to the ability of his equipment to fulfill the purpose at best of actual knowledge ? And do you really believe the low ranks cheap items were as effective as the "Dandy rich boy" ones ?

They were meant to last and act well enough to protect/equip an expendible serviceman to fill the ranks for the time needed. More would have been a waste.

Most of the low-end items didn't survive enough to have an history exactly because of their junk-like nature. Either destroied by use or neglected, even if the appalling great number they were produced let us with quiet a good number of them. The overwelming majority of the low-end items around now are of no historical importance, even if they might have historical appeal

(to some).

 

High end items survived both as artistical and practical items entering history exactly *because* their-high end nature. They were able to survive actual use and/or were valuable enough to be

preserved.

 

Paraphrasing Hoakeshott "an high-end item has four battles or four hundred years in it, whatever comes first. A junk one... hardly". However, sheer numbers still plays for the junk.

 

Edo low-end items are per-sè, a cathegory (?) apart...

[ububob]

Actually Eric history is in the hand of the writer...

[reinhard]

I can't see any "high end" here. It looks more like "end" than "high". - Whenever you go to Kasuga Taisha in Nara you'll find a small museum on the left just before entering the main temple area. Go in there. It is worthwhile. It is containing some real "high end" armour. The small museum being part of the Tsurugaoka Hachiman Gu in Kamakura also displays some real "high-end" armour.

 

reinhard

[sanjuro]

I'm with Reinhard here. I dont see 'high end' armours among the examples in this thread. I see flashy, colourful and probably late armours but not 'high end'.

A dangerous assumption is being made, that high end armours are by definition decorative and colourful. Sorry, but this is simply erroneous. Some genuine high end armours are quite plain and subdued. Their quality is in the supremecy of their function not in the dandy colours and rich appointments department. Equally there are some very fine armours that are also very decorative. I suggest possibly looking at some of the earlier armours of serious samurai and not the effete 'pretty war suits' of the mid Edo period dandies.

[estcrh]

Recently I came across 2 really rare high end armors of the type I am interested in

 

If you notice, I said that the armors pictured were the type that I was interested in, obviously some people do not feel the same and thats their personal opinion....You would not find much better examples FOR SALE of these types of armors (kikko and karuta) from this period any were that I know of. Some people genuinely believe that the age of the samurai stopped sometime in the 1600's and anything from the Edo period should be ignored. While you are certainly welcome to your opinion it is just that, an opinion and no more. Different armors for different times, the same goes for weapons also. I can admire items from any period and from both sides , the high end and the low end but some people only see one side....there is no right or wrong here..only personal opinion.

[Iekatsu]

I am sure the definition of "high end" differs from person to person, but I would be interested to hear both of your opinions as to why the the second armour pictured does not qualify as a high end piece, perhaps post some examples of armour you consider high end for comparison?

[estcrh]

I can't see any "high end" here. It looks more like "end" than "high". - Whenever you go to Kasuga Taisha in Nara you'll find a small museum on the left just before entering the main temple area. Go in there. It is worthwhile. It is containing some real "high end" armour. The small museum being part of the Tsurugaoka Hachiman Gu in Kamakura also displays some real "high-end" armour.

 

reinhard

 

99.999% of the members" better shut up when it comes to HIGH END ARMORS!!!

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

you have to add flashy colors and a sense of extravagance , its just that some people are more susceptible to the "bait?" Things have not changed much ...

 

Maybe I now understand how you've got this feeling

 

 

 

 

 

"In a salute to luxury brand Chanel, artist Tetsuya Noguchi has created some concept samurai armor suits designed to appeal to the fashion-conscious warrior. Made from resin, cashew lacquer, cloth and glass, the exquisitely crafted protective suits sport the iconic double-C logo, allowing the wearer to flaunt his superior social status while crushing the enemy on the battlefield".

 

http://elogedelart.canalblog.com/tag/Armor

[IanB]

I have held my council on this thread whilst gently lusting after the armour with the kikko dou. Yes it was made in a time of peace, and yes it is made to look good, but in my experience such armours are invariably of consummate quality. Contrast that with what is regarded in Japan as a 'very high-end armour' - one that all the Japanese armour enthusiasts who have examined it enthuse over. It was bought for the Royal Armouries collection in 1841 but research has shown that it was given to King Philip II of Spain by the Tensho Mission in 1585. Since it bears the kamon of the Shimazu family, it was probably sent to Spain by Otomo Sorin who fought the Shimazu. That it was used in action is shown by numerous cuts on the edges of some plates and a groove plowed into the lacquer of the forearm by an arrowhead that went on to break the mail joining the shino. At some point, King Philip III disposed of this armour, with two others, to the Duke of Infantado of Gadalajara. It remained in his palace in Spain until the 1830's when it was acquired by Eusebio Zuloaga who sold it at Oxenham's saleroom in London. After its purchase, it was re-laced with a greenish woolen braid by staff at the Tower of London. It is a mogami haramaki, black lacquered and originally black laced. A manuscript inventory of the Real Armeria dated 1603 describes it as having a 'panache' or large crest of gilded leather on top of the helmet and a pair of black fur covered kuwagata with the Shimazu kamon in the centre as the maedate. Sadly both these are now missing. Recently, it was decided to undertake the restoration of this armour, eliminating the Victorian braid and bringing it back to something approaching its original state. This gave provided an opportunity to really study the armour in detail. What was immediately apparent was that many of the plates had been cut from the pieces of an even older armour - the edges showing partial lacing holes of the original. X-rays revealed that just about all the plates in one of the sode were made up from odd pieces of iron riveted together to make a plate big enough. Even more surprising was that the entire cheek of the mask was also an odd scrap riveted on. No doubt further X-rays will reveal that other parts have also been assembled from odd pieces. Non of this was of course visible externally because of the lacquering.

Why is this armour important? Well it is old, it has a fascinating history and is historically important. It is also an eminently practical fighting armour of the Sengoku Jidai - which is rare. Is it a quality armour? Not really. It is cobbled together from scraps. Is it a work of art? Definitely not, it is sober to the point of austerity. Which would I rather own? Undoubtedly this one.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Is it a work of art? Definitely not, it is sober to the point of austerity.

 

Soberty might, and IMHO indeed is, a quality you can find in katchu defined work of arts,

especially Kabuto, even if might be not the case of the specific armor you're telling us about

(you're certainly more qualified than me about this).

 

Artistic or historical aspect apart, the point is to discern between sober quality and poor craftmanship meant to save time and material.

[estcrh]

Here is an example of how 2 people who consider themselves to be EXPERTS can see the same item in a completely different way...A while back I posted a picture of an armor I own and was attacked by a self styled expert member of the forum...he told me and I quote directly

I'm member of an on invitation only board in which you can deal with the real connoisseurs of Katchu, not the beginners you find here, easy prey for sombody that could have the target of advertising his low ends stuffs for cheap business.

When a well known person who IS considered to be a leading authority on the subject (Anthony Bryant) saw the exact same picture he said and I quote directly

Ooh, hey. NICE piece. True iyozane, too. Good high-quality bit of gusoku-ness. Damn. I hate drooling on my keyboard. Makes it all sticky.

Here the picture of the armor in question..is anyone here able to understand why Anthony Bryant would consider this to be "good high quality" as opposed to the forum member who considered it to be "low end stuffs". More pictures of the armor in question.

 

99.999% of the members" better shut up when it comes to HIGH END ARMORS!!!

 

http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz23 ... ?start=all

 

[Nihonto Chicken]

Can "high end" coexist with "low end"?

 

In theory, yes, but in fact, maybe not under the same roof. Though I imagine I have the attention span to appreciate both ends of the spectrum, my pocketbook favors only one. In truth, I don't lust that much for a juyo Nambokucho because, despite being unable to afford it in the first place, I doubt my ability to properly safe guard such an acquisition, and so I'll leave it for someone with a heaver safe, more security, and better climate control. I'm happy enough with my lower end swords. Not that I imagine them to be fine art blades, but they do have redeeming social value, such as, say, the mumei gunto that looks at first to be a bar stocker, but upon very close examination turns out to be muji hada that only shows its extremely fine masame character in the habuchi with perhaps a dozen lines of sunagashi in an eighth of an inch, or another gunto with an original mizukage replete with a floating island of tobiyaki as well as strange dark darts rising off the temper line gunome peaks. I guess I'm easily entertained. :lol:

[estcrh]

 

 

 

 

Eric, do you really believe that a wealthy Samurai of any fighting period was only interested in "flashy colors" and not to the ability of his equipment to fulfill the purpose at best of actual knowledge ? And do you really believe the low ranks cheap items were as effective as the "Dandy rich boy" ones ?

They were meant to last and act well enough to protect/equip an expendible serviceman to fill the ranks for the time needed. More would have been a waste.

Most of the low-end items didn't survive enough to have an history exactly because of their junk-like nature. Either destroied by use or neglected, even if the appalling great number they were produced let us with quiet a good number of them. The overwelming majority of the low-end items around now are of no historical importance, even if they might have historical appeal

(to some).

 

High end items survived both as artistical and practical items entering history exactly *because* their-high end nature. They were able to survive actual use and/or were valuable enough to be

preserved.

 

Paraphrasing Hoakeshott "an high-end item has four battles or four hundred years in it, whatever comes first. A junk one... hardly". However, sheer numbers still plays for the junk.

 

Edo low-end items are per-sè, a cathegory (?) apart...

 

This is an ashi-garu or foot soldier armor, and you are telling me that just because it is "low end" that it is a piece of junk with no historical importance? This armor was made for a specific purpose and the ashi-garu played an important part in samurai history. I would have no problem owning an armor such as this but once again you have a right to your personal opinion...but thats all it is..an opinion.

 

Ashi-garu: Foot Soldier. A complete matched Ashigaru Gusoku from the mid Edo Period (1750 +) again a munitions grade set under a wealth Lord. This set does have yoke padding but without Kikko inserts. The Mon on this armor also suggest that it was provided to men in the Taiho (cannon) squad as was common with particular crest, but I can not confirm or deny this. Also of interest is this Jingase is made of iron with urushi applied, much more costly to make than with leather, paper or bamboo.

 

from> http://hirasefamily.com/antiquesyoroi.aspx

[Iekatsu]

I believe this is the armour Mr Bottomley speaks of, a personal favorite of mine.

 

[sanjuro]

Eric.

 

Putting aside our personal preferences for a moment, I'm sorry to tell you that your example of an ashigaru gosoku has very little historic significance. In a militaria sense perhaps it is interesting, but in real terms it is nothing more than a uniform comparable historically to the uniform of any common soldier in any army or organised fighting force during the same historical period.

[estcrh]

Eric.

 

Putting aside our personal preferences for a moment, I'm sorry to tell you that your example of an ashigaru gosoku has very little historic significance. In a militaria sense perhaps it is interesting, but in real terms it is nothing more than a uniform comparable historically to the uniform of any common soldier in any army or organised fighting force during the same historical period.

 

Keith, is that a fact or an opinion? people sometimes confuse the two things and even facts can be argued. I think you are absolutely wrong and any item from a time that someone is interested in is of historical significance to them.

 

To someone interested in this period or who HAS an interest in the "common soldier" items such as an existing ashi-garu armor are historically significant. You have made it clear on several posts that you consider samurai from the Edo period to be not worthy of respect so of course you see things differently from someone who is more open minded and sees the Edo period and the items from it to be just as important as any other period. Here are a few quotes from you>

 

"Add to the above the fact that this saddle was made during the Edo period. A period of history when the samurai as a class were in decline, in fact were already decadent and had no use for a saddle of this caliber.

 

Show me a saddle from the sengoku Jidai or earlier and I would pay this kind of money and more, because it belonged to a real samurai!"

 

"the effete 'pretty war suits' of the mid Edo period dandies."

 

and you also stated

"I'm no Katchu expert, far from it,"

 

"Thanks Eric

 

Just goes to show how little I know about Katchu"

So now you are an expert on what armors are historically significant? And what about the future, maybe someday these items that some people consider to be junk will be seen in a different light. We are all keepers of history in our own way, you do it your way and I will do it my way, does either way have to be right or wrong?

 

Someday people of the future will be glad that the items we have preserved are still around for them to see..thats the important thing to me..not just looking at a sword on my shelf or an armor in the corner of a room.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Eric, I'm happy you've been able to get Tony's highly regarded and *VERY FORGIVING* opinion.

 

I stand of my own opinion of course on your *for sale* items.

 

Let us *NOT* believe you're self-promoting them, feeling that I've had from the beginning.

[estcrh]

Eric, I'm happy you've been aple to get Tony's highly regarded and *VERY FORGIVING* opinion.

 

I stand of my own opinion of course on your *for sale* items.

 

Let us *NOT* believe you're self-promoting them.

 

Carlo.....show me were I have ever on the forum mentioned that I was selling an item, and if you care to search you will see that I have never listed an item for sale on the forum, and I have never sold a samurai or Japanese item on Ebay EVER, unlike MANY forum members. I BUY ITEMS and have no NEED (currently) to sell anything and I do not make my living from selling ANYTHING...and while I do have a web site..... calling me a DEALER is like calling someone with a garden a farmer. I think Roys advise on waiting a couple of decades is very worth while.

 

Carlo..people have different opinions..you have a right to yours but in the end its just an opinion. I do not just own items, I share pictures of what I have with people on many forums (again no mention of anything for sale)with anyone who asks and have posted many pictures online including on wikimedia commons for posterity> http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense ... _timestamp

 

As for the armor mentioned, here is a quote from M.J.Peters of http://www.blackhydraarmouries.com

You have an extremely rare harness there. I can't bring to mind another munemenui dou-maru, most are ni-mai dou. I had it pegged as Hosogawa before seeing the Etchu kabuto and hanbo but regardless it is a very nice complete harness.

Everyone makes mistakes from time to time...Anthony just saw something that you missed or maybe what he sees as interesting in an armor is just different then what you look for, once again an example of how OPINIONS can be so very different.

[Lee Bray]

I think you are absolutely wrong and any item from a time that someone is interested in is of historical significance to them.

 

Eric, I see your point but in a way, you're validating modern day Chinese replica tsuba.

In 200 years time, they may well be interesting to some collector but they will hardly be a good example of anything except fake tsuba.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Carlo.....show me were I have ever on the forum mentioned that I was selling an item, and if you care to search you will see that I have never listed an item for sale on the forum,

 

mmmm.. may be that remove the link to your website from your profile would remove any further suspicion :

 

http://samuraiantiqueworld.com/

 

As for the armor mentioned, here is a quote from M.J.Peters of http://www.blackhydraarmouries.com "You have an extremely rare harness there. I can't bring to mind another munemenui dou-maru, most are ni-mai dou. I had it pegged as Hosogawa before seeing the Etchu kabuto and hanbo but regardless it is a very nice complete harness."

 

Indeed people have different opinions. I'm not sure will treasure Peter's one unless I begin an SCA fighter (that's very hard to occour).

[estcrh]

I have held my council on this thread whilst gently lusting after the armour with the kikko dou.

Ian Bottomley

Ian, when I saw that armor I thought about the picture you sent me of the kikko dou you own, which might have belonged originally to an armor much like the one pictured. I have been looking for something similar to yours for awhile but kikko armor in general seems to be extremely rare and I have only been able to find some kikko armored clothing. This is an beautifully restored example of a "kikko katabira?" from kevin at ryujinswords.com.

 

 

[estcrh]

Lee, we wont be around to find out but your probably more right than you realize.

[estcrh]

 

Indeed people have different opinions. I'm not sure will treasure Peter's one unless I begin an SCA fighter (that's very hard to occour).

Carlo, maybe you should give it a try, it might bring you down to earth with us common, 99.999%, low end, folk. By the way..thanks for the advertisement! I will have to give you a cut of my immense profits

[sanjuro]

Eric.

 

As you point out, I am by confession no expert in Katchu. One does not however, need to be an expert to assess something from an intellectual point of view rather than an emotive one. I have made no judgement on the quality of the example in question because I am not knowledgeable enough to make such a judgement. My brain however works relatively well, and be it only an opinion, I stand by what I have said, purely from a standpoint of comparative reasoning. Sure, I have little love or respect for Edo period items generally speaking, but that does not preclude me from acknowledging the fine things that were produced in that period. I may be somewhat biased but I am not utterly blind.

Perhaps you might bear in mind that an alternative opinion to yours is not a personal affront. Both carlo and I seem to have offended you by not agreeing with you. Life is like that. Lighten up!