Tsuba...Original and Copy

[Eric H]

Two Tsuba with the same motif. Do you see the difference?

 

Eric

[sanjuro]

Yes, there is a difference. I guess you want us to state which one is the original and which one is the copy?........ OK, I'll play :D

 

This is a guess....... X is the original (bottom pic)

XX is the copy (top pic) Based purely on 'feel' and patina. My instincts about such things are usually extremely questionable however.

[Jamie]

I too think the bottom one is the original.

[Eric H]

hhmmm...?

Eric

[docliss]

How about 'both are copies, taken from a single matrix by the lost wax method'?

 

John L.

[paulb]

Just to be different and probably prove my lack of fittings knowledge I would go for the top one being original and the bottom the copy. the plate looks more natural on the top image the lower work looks more contrived.

[xxlotus8xx]

I'm with Paul.

Top is original. Looks more naturally age worn.

[Mark Green]

How about they are both the same tsuba.

One has the black boarder giving it that shiny look. The other has the white boarder, making it look totally different.

Mark G

[Hermes]

Ditto Mark, both the same and it looks real to me?

[Surfson]

Bottom one looks the better to me (check out carvings in the plug in the kogai ana and others), though hard to tell if either are genuine.

[lonesomeagle1]

  Mark Green said:

How about they are both the same tsuba.

One has the black boarder giving it that shiny look. The other has the white boarder, making it look totally different.

Mark G

 

Looks like this to me. Great lighting demo!

 

\Pete

[doug e lewis]

As the most novice novice NMB poster ..... bottom one is the real tsuba. the man's face is clearer, more natural art work so seems to show emotion. the gold inlay around him appears to be better made, with a more seamless arc; the upper one has a clear break in the circle and looks crude.

 

I find the shape and patina of the bottom to be more pleasing.

 

So IMHO I vote bottom as real

 

doug

[Brian]

Could Eric have been that naughty? :lol:

Yes..I think possibly. Every time I think I see differences, I start to question myself. Could they be the same, with one post-restoration? Or maybe one pic from a catalog and the other an actual photo?

I know we have seen this design before..maybe it was a repeated mass produced one. But this definitely shows the limitations of evaluating things online or from pics.

 

Brian

[paulb]

two thoughts come to mind

1. Whether it is my machine my eyes or just me they look different shapes. The first looks longer and narrower.

2. When demonstrating the weakness of colour vision a classic test is to put the same object against a white and then black background. I wonder if some of the differences we are seeing are just because one is shot on a white background and the other black. (doesnt explain the shape though so maybe that is just my eyes )

[Tsugio Kawakami]

My feeling is the bottom is original and the top is a copy. The top seems to lack the same detail as the bottom and the different subjects seem to be...a little less colored inside the lines? The hitsuana plug on the bottom seems nicely done and crisp, whereas the top seems more...less? My words are not good right now. I need sleep.

 

Then again, this could all be an elaborate trick!

[Andi B.]

The same tsuba - photographed and scanned?

[kuromido]

From another novice, I think it’s the same tsuba. Probably a modern copy.

The copper plating or inlay seriously overruns the arm onto the plate above the elbow and the plate looks too shiny and or waxy to me.

 

Ok now where’s that darn crow???

 

PeterD

[Grey Doffin]

Reter,

I don't think that's overrunning of copper but the demon's left arm behind the right. Both tsuba are too well made for that elementary a mistake.

Grey

[ububob]

Gotta love these cyberspace shinsas. I imagine Eric will be kind enough to reveal the truth in time. I enjoy the differing viewpoints but my tsuba thinking is quite linear...if it ain't Akasaka...well...

[Eric H]

Gentlemen,

This was just for fun as a little exercise... :lol: ...the pictures vary in quality for serious judging.

 

XX - top

this Tsuba is unsigned, modern age, with gold seal, aorigata, and was up for auction recently.

 

 

X - bottom

this Tsuba is signed Minamoto Nagatsune horu with gold seal

Lot No 6093 Bonhams Sale

 

Bonhams Sale 18307, New York 14 Sep 2010

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.s ... leNo=18307

 

Thanks for the replies

 

Eric

[Mike]

I have just seen this and it came to my mind that without hi-res photos any guess is good as the other, it is just a gamble with 50% chance to win (or loose).

Not meaning to sound rude, just my thought.

cheers,

Mike

[Mark Green]

Wow, What a great casting. And nice finish as well. were there any more pics of the top one?

[Jamie]

The light and dark background do seem to play some tricks, although the bottom appears to have much more detail. Like the forhead for example.

[Eric H]

  Mark Green said:

Wow, What a great casting. And nice finish as well. were there any more pics of the top one?

with pleasure

Eric

[sanjuro]

Eric H

 

Please show the other face of the real tsuba. The copy is exceptional but at least give equal space to the 'real thing'. :D

[Eric H]

Well it's only the front side available

Eric

[russbellon]

I can vouch for the quality of the casting(s). I have one mounted on a Chinese Katana I use for Iai. Incidentally, the demon's hand does intrude on the seppa dai so i had to alter the seppa to fit it.

[Mark Green]

nHi Russ,

Is the casting all soft metal alloy? Is the color just painted on?

 

thanks, Mark G

[russbellon]

  Mark Green said:

nHi Russ,

Is the casting all soft metal alloy? Is the color just painted on?

 

thanks, Mark G

Hi Mark,

the casting is iron/steel (magnetic) and the color is just paint.

[Mark Green]

Wow,

Thanks Bro!

Mark G