What are unusual or rare subjects for menuki?

[kokyo jin]

skull and bones represent battle of Sekigahara not rare but are collectible so you do not see them available that often

 

[Toryu2020]

Gentlemen -

I am pretty sure that the skull and bones theme represents "Musashino" or the plain of Musashi. Which in ancient times was a lonely and forlorn spot to which unfortunate members of the court might be exiled RE: the tales of Ise. So this is a literary reference and not a historical one.

 

If there were pieces of armour present then you could argue it represents a battlefield, possibly Sekigahara but more likely reference to poetry yet again;

 

Natsugusa ya

Tsuwamonodomo ga

yume no ato

 

or any number of other similar poems from the great old collections...

-t

[kokyo jin]

 

You got me wrong. It looks as if you posted two different pics of one and the same object. This becomes obvious when comparing them to the background. The objects have the exact same size and are placed on the exact same spot on the tissue. In fact, so exactly in the same positiion it is beyond coincidence. Actually it looks as if the same pic was just edited in completely different ways.

 

It doesn't really matter much, for this thing is far from real Tosogu anyway. Maybe I'm wrong. I was just wondering. Could you show us the two objects in one shot, please?

 

reinhard

 

Here you go:

 

 

 

Satisfied ??

[kokyo jin]

http://www.ricecracker.com/inventory/ft ... i_zuo.html

[Toryu2020]

a sweet pair of Pachyderms...

-t

[reinhard]

Satisfied ??

 

Are you kidding me? This is one of the poorest (photo shop) jobs I've seen in a long time. You didn't even care about pixel sizes, shadows and proper framing (pun intended).

 

I don't care where you got your pics from. I don't care wether this obscure object belongs to you or not. I'm just wondering why you are insisting on being the owner of TWO of these hideous objects. In your place, I'd be eager to proof I'm NOT owning junk like this.

 

Sad enough this kind of crap is seriously discussed on a board dedicated to NihonTo.

 

reinhard

[Henry Wilson]

Gentlemen -

I am pretty sure that the skull and bones theme represents "Musashino"

 

Below is a Kaneie tsuba, taken from the IKEDA book titled KANEIE. I typed out the description once. It might shine some light the skull and bones theme.

 

 

野晒図

 

生きとし生けるものの、すべての過去洗い流した感じを受ける。

何らの不潔さも不気味さをも感じさせない、静かに澄んだ図である。

鉄色、彫、施された金銀象嵌など、何れも至って見事である。（三五頁拡大図十参照）

同時代の信家に「切りむすぶ太刀の下こそ地獄なれ、進めや進めや先は極楽」と歌を切り村けた鍔と好一対といえる。（五五頁上段図）

生きて戦う時は信家のおこく、そして死んで後は｢焼けは灰、埋めは土となるものを、なにがのこりて罪となるらん｣とも歌われているが、金家のこの鍔に接すると痛切にこの歌が思い出されるのたる。

[kokyo jin]

 

Are you kidding me? This is one of the poorest (photo shop) jobs I've seen in a long time. You didn't even care about pixel sizes, shadows and proper framing (pun intended).

 

I don't care where you got your pics from. I don't care wether this obscure object belongs to you or not. I'm just wondering why you are insisting on being the owner of TWO of these hideous objects. In your place, I'd be eager to proof I'm NOT owning junk like this.

 

Sad enough this kind of crap is seriously discussed on a board dedicated to NihonTo.

 

reinhard

Thank you for your trust and for wasting my time!

[chuck]

 

Are you kidding me? This is one of the poorest (photo shop) jobs I've seen in a long time. You didn't even care about pixel sizes, shadows and proper framing (pun intended).

 

I don't care where you got your pics from. I don't care wether this obscure object belongs to you or not. I'm just wondering why you are insisting on being the owner of TWO of these hideous objects. In your place, I'd be eager to proof I'm NOT owning junk like this.

 

Sad enough this kind of crap is seriously discussed on a board dedicated to NihonTo.

 

reinhard

 

Jeez man. Someone pee in your cornflakes?

 

Why wouldn't we discuss the influence of technological advances on Japanese metalwork? Seems to me it qualifies as a "rare subject" as well.

 

These look like they have some historical interest at least. I'm glad to have seen them.

 

puzzled.

[Brian]

Sad enough this kind of crap is seriously discussed on a board dedicated to NihonTo.

 

reinhard

Sheesh, I wasn't aware we were discussing them. I thought it was only you and Hilik discussing them. The rest of us are long over it, and are back to discussing the entertaining original topic of unusual menuki themes.

I don't really care that much if there are one or 2 or none of them. But I really wouldn't be so confident in any (meaningless) statements on how many anyways. Can we move on now?

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

I know this thread has been going for some time but I have only just caught up with it and so I apologise for repeating anything that may have gone before. I have a sword on which the menuki are in the form of peacocks, iron with some gilt work, not a subject I have seen before.

Regards

Clive

PS: Apologies once again, but don't the skulls and bones refer to Basho's poem, referring to Musashino, "The summer grasses, all that is left of the warrior's dream"

[chuck]

Gentlemen

I know this thread has been going for some time but I have only just caught up with it and so I apologise for repeating anything that may have gone before. I have a sword on which the menuki are in the form of peacocks, iron with some gilt work, not a subject I have seen before.

Regards

Clive

PS: Apologies once again, but don't the skulls and bones refer to Basho's poem, referring to Musashino, "The summer grasses, all that is left of the warrior's dream"

 

Any pics of the peacocks? I'd like to see them.

 

Thanks!

[chuck]

All I got was a rock.

 

https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/auct ... 1213703271

 

I can't help but to wonder - what other fittings would you pair up with your set of "men in shapeless raincoats pulling a rock with ropes" menuki?

 

I'm thinking a f/k set depicting a rock quarry, and a tsuba with an image of a half-built stone monastery on a rainy day.

 

Never seen another set like it.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Any pics of the peacocks? I'd like to see them.

Regards

Clive

[cabowen]

tsukamaki is superlative....

[Brian]

So are the menuki!

 

Brian

[Clive Sinclaire]

Hi Brian and Chris

Thanks for the compliments. The koshirae is a Hizen-type of han-dachi and contains my shodai Masahiro blade. Actually, I bought it at Dai Token Ichi a few years back and hadn't realised that the sword had koshirae until it arrived home in the UK!

Clive

[chuck]

Gorgeous!!

 

Thanks for posting those!

[george trotter]

I just dropped into this thread again...if I may comment on skulls and bones theme, I can report that dredging up my memories of many readings of Japanese history as depicted in art (on tsuba especially), that the "Musashino" bones and skulls are usually depicted in grass...a reference to the "grasses of Musashino". Most will know that this important battle was fought in the marshy reed beds there at Musashino, and bodies were simply robbed by the peasants of any weapons and armours and left to slowly disappear in the reeds....hence the lonely "feeling" of these depictions. Musashino is now an outer suburb of Tokyo and I often went there on University and Astronomic business.

The original post of the tsuba with skull and bones shows grasses...I would suggest that this is Musashino.

Sekigahara I don't know much about.

Hope this helps,

George.

PS...Henry I glanced through the Japanese text you posted and cannot see any reference to Musashino...(may be coincidence, but the tsuba you posted with it does not have grasses?).

[Henry Wilson]

Henry I glanced through the Japanese text you posted and cannot see any reference to Musashino...(may be coincidence, but the tsuba you posted with it does not have grasses?

Hi George

 

Yes, there is no mention of Musashino. The theme of skull and bones is found on one Kaneie and a few Nobuie tsuba and scholars believe the motifs are contempory and that they hint at the Buddhist notion of the superficial nature of life, meaning that when we die we are nothing but bones regardless of what we have achieved in our life. For Kaneie it is an unusual motif but none the less very powerful.

 

It was not intended to divert the discussion from Musashino, but to stop it nose diving :D

A very nice tsuba don't you think?!!!

[george trotter]

Hi Henry,

yes, I agree. Your Kaneie certainly evokes the sentiment that great of small, the same fate awaits us all. I like it too.

I once had a plain iron tsuba with bones, skull and grass under a crescent moon in silver.

Regards,

George.

[Toryu2020]

The Kaneie reference to the impermanence of life is literary as well, according to the text posted. Not meant to depict any one battle.

 

for faceless men in raincoats dragging a rock - that is a depiction of coral harvesting, not that usual but not unheard of. Peacocks, and they are clearly menuki, get my vote for most unusual so far...

 

-t

[kokyo jin]

Gentlemen -

I am pretty sure that the skull and bones theme represents "Musashino" or the plain of Musashi. Which in ancient times was a lonely and forlorn spot to which unfortunate members of the court might be exiled RE: the tales of Ise. So this is a literary reference and not a historical one.

 

If there were pieces of armour present then you could argue it represents a battlefield, possibly Sekigahara but more likely reference to poetry yet again;

 

Natsugusa ya

Tsuwamonodomo ga

yume no ato

 

or any number of other similar poems from the great old collections...

-t

 

Bones on the Battle Field of Sekigahara

[george trotter]

Bones on the Battle Field of Sekigahara

 

Interesting fuchi? (looks flat sided?).

Out of interest, how can you tell its Sekigahara?

Regards,

George.

[kokyo jin]

Bones on the Battle Field of Sekigahara

 

Interesting fuchi? (looks flat sided?).

Out of interest, how can you tell its Sekigahara?

Regards,

George.

 

I do not actually own this piece.

 

Please visit http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/HFJ_Bones.htm

[george trotter]

Yes I see...interesting description for the theme. I think he is correct about the difference in the Western perception of "be warned...danger" etc compared to the Eastern concept.

Thanks.

George.

[Toryu2020]

Hilik -

Not that I want to start an argument but I wonder if you or anyone has a Japanese reference that calls this or a similar theme "Sekigahara"? The Japanese love of mono no aware, pathos, the impermanence of life was well established before that battle. The reeds and grasses as mentioned reference the plain of Musashi. It could also be Sekigahara or any other battlefield for that matter but there is nothing in the image to suggest it. The Kaneie reference posted above does not mention any place names but rather more examples of poetry.

 

I would also reference other arts; painting, textiles, ceramics, literature and theatre. Are there frequent depictions of Sekigahara in these?

 

I remain skeptical...

-t

[kokyo jin]

Hilik -

Not that I want to start an argument but I wonder if you or anyone has a Japanese reference that calls this or a similar theme "Sekigahara"? The Japanese love of mono no aware, pathos, the impermanence of life was well established before that battle. The reeds and grasses as mentioned reference the plain of Musashi. It could also be Sekigahara or any other battlefield for that matter but there is nothing in the image to suggest it.

 

I remain skeptical...

-t

 

I agree with you on that assumption.

I see this motif a lot on woodblock prints (that I own).

 

Cheers

[reinhard]

I have a sword on which the menuki are in the form of peacocks, iron with some gilt work, not a subject I have seen before.

 

Clive, peacocks are not uncommon a subject for menuki. First attachement shows an example by Goto TEIJO. Sorry for the bad quality. It's the scan of an illustration from a catalogue..

Thomas (Helm), you've stated that Raijin and Fujin are rare subjects for menuki. Well, they're not that rare. Second attachment shows the best pair I've seen so far. It is attributed to Yokoya SOYO.

 

The "skull and bones"-theme lasted for a long time. It never became really popular though. Third attachment shows a tsuba from late Edo/ Meiji period.

 

reinhard

[johnb]

This is the only snake I could find. It looks like it's been converted to a tie pin, not even sure it's was ever a menuki. Apparently there are over 40 species of snake in Japan, so where are the snake menuki?

 

Johnb