What are unusual or rare subjects for menuki?

[ububob]

While wandering about the recent San Francisco show looking for Akasaka tsuba I took the time to look a hundreds of menuki from exquisite to the opposite end of that spectrum. I noted all manner of farm animals,fish,fowl,weapons, tools, ods, imaginary beings etc. In all of that I only saw one set of turtles and got to wondering if that was a rare or unusual subject. I thought I would ask some of you more experienced menuki collectors what really passes for unusual or rare in your area of interest.

[Ford Hallam]

I don't think turtles are a particularly rare subject for menuki really. Penguins, on the other hand, are never seen :D

[george trotter]

...or aeroplanes!

 

Geo.

[Brian]

Before we get too silly....

I like the early Japanese depictions of elephants, but I don't think they are often seen. The Japanese must have had limited exposure to them through.....?

 

Brian

[xxlotus8xx]

Though I have no huge collection I think these insignia are rare and used as menuki? Even rarer?

 

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7769

[Mark]

Brian

 

I came across a set of Elephant menuki, they are the first i have seen. I listed them for sale on eBay, check them out

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :MESELX:IT

 

any comments, good or bad welcome

[george trotter]

About Brian's wondering how/when elephants appeared in Japnese art...I seem to remember my Japanese teacher singing a little song about "Zo" (elephant). I may be wrong but I seem to remember her saying that elephant's image etc came to Japan with the Portuguese (1540s) and Dutch (1610s) via their trade stations in Africa/India etc...that is probably why they usually seem distorted in Japanese art...they never saw a real one to record properly?

Geo.

[Curran]

Odd menuki:

 

The very very first sword I ever owned was a wakizashi in koshirae falling apart.

The menuki were not high grade, but the theme was "foreigners drunk underneath modern street lamps at the cherry blossom festival"

 

I kid you not!! Hilarious little menuki. I sold them, not knowing how unusual a theme that was....

[Brian Hancock]

Hi All,

 

I had a terrible time finding Dragonfly menuki. I put a wanted ad. here on the board but no luck. In the end my friend Tony Edmunds bought me some back from Japan which were modern.He then got Richard Adams to re-patinate them and they are now gracing a gorgeous wakazashi he refurbished for me. I've still not seen any older ones.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian. (UK)

[nagamaki - Franco]

  Brian Hancock said:

I had a terrible time finding Dragonfly menuki

 

They're out there, it's just that any decent old pair doesn't remain available for very long, especially turtles and dragonfly. If there's a motif in particular being searched for, let the few dealers that travel regularly to Japan know what you're after. But, be prepared, the good stuff ain't inexpensive. Another alternative is Ford, he makes an excellent dragonfly.

 

If cheap($) is your bag keep close tabs on ebay (not recommending), it seems to be constantly flooded with more and more repro stuff, it's likely that sooner or later something will appear there if there's a demand. Just ask Ken over at Mantis Dude about all mantis showing up.

[ububob]

Thanks for the comments. I promise to be diligent in my search for Ford's Penguins but I will settle for puffins or a pair of wildebeasts.

[Surfson]

Getting back to the original question, I can't recall seeing turtles, though there is a turtle-like creature that pops up every now and then. Sorry, but I don't recall what it is called.

[machinist]

Kappa, Robert?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_%28folklore%29

[watsonmil]

A Menuki, ... or for that matter ANY Japanese Art rarely depicts " OWLS ". They are considered an omen of bad luck, ... and when depicted usually they are shown with their back to the viewer.

... Ron Watson

[ububob]

Kappa could work. Sort of an amphibious Bigfoot.

 

Ron, I read somewhere that the Celts had the same sort of superstition about owls.

[watsonmil]

Dear Bob,

The gaelic word for owl is " Cailleach ", and since in Celtic lore he is our guide through the night ( because of his good eyesight ). He is also an expert hunter, ... and because of his wisdom, he can warn of those who would deceive or cheat us. All Celts should carry one when attending a Sword Show .

... Ron Watson

[sanjuro]

Ron.

 

Errrr..... Gaels and Celts arent quite the same thing. Gaels are only found in Scotland I believe, whereas Celts are found predominantly in Ireland and Wales (and of course some of those mixed blood Anglo Saxons in England can lay distant claim to Celtic ancestry). We do however share our mythology with the Gaels. Actually they stole it..... but being Celts, we magnanimously allow them to use it. :lol:

 

I point out here that this is said in jest. Take a moment to smile ye Gaels before you raise an army of highlanders in response.

[paulb]

  Quote

and of course some of those mixed blood Anglo Saxons in England can lay distant claim to Celtic ancestry

Yes but Keith why would they want to? :D

[sanjuro]

Because Paul, it would give them some historic legitimacy. :D

[paulb]

As in most history legitimacy comes from winning. Being a member of one of the most mixed up natiions in the world Roman, Saxon, Dane, Norman etc means you can choose whichever lineage suits at the time. Sometimes in cricket matches I even pretend to have Australian blood (but rarely!)

[sanjuro]

Paul.

 

I am an Australian of convenience. I have permanent resident status but retain my British passport, (unfortunately there is no such thing as a Welsh passport). Ergo, I can completely understand your logic in this matter. :D Legitimacy also comes from not losing. The Celts in Ireland and Wales have never been conquered. The Gaels unfortunately succumbed to the English.

 

We are seriously off topic here...... Let us therefore desist lest we draw down upon our heads, the terrible wrath of Brian. :lol:

[ububob]

In the words of the immortal Charlie Brown, "Good grief!" :D

[chuck]

Think I saw a kappa themed tsuba a while ago at the Flying Cranes gallery in NYC.

 

twasn't cheap, tho.

 

peace.

[Surfson]

Actually, it just came to me - minogame is the term. Here is a link to an online photo of one. B

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... 29,r:1,s:0

[reinhard]

Fukurokuju (one of the Gods of luck) is attended by crane, deer or tortoise. Giving a hint to the well-educated samurai by showing the attribute only and omitting the main subject was common practice.

Tortoises standing alone are quite rare though.

 

reinhard

[outlier48]

  watsonmil said:

A Menuki, ... or for that matter ANY Japanese Art rarely depicts " OWLS ". They are considered an omen of bad luck, ... and when depicted usually they are shown with their back to the viewer. ... Ron Watson

 

Ron, I respectfully disagree. I collect owl related items so I have a built in prejudice. My wife - born and raised in Japan - tells me for Japanese people owls are omens of good luck. A search of Google seems to confirm this. I recall seeing an owl themed tsuba at Tetsugendo's table at the 2009 SF show. Maybe Mike or Cyrus has a photo they can post.

 

Charlie Brashear

[Ford Hallam]

Owls were a favourite subject of Shimizu Jingu, the famous Higo tsuba-shi. He of the cartoon-like hawk in brass. Evidently not a bad omen in Higo then

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

What about cats as rare ones ?

 

http://www.ricecracker.com/inventory/ft ... _neko.html

[george trotter]

That's a rare one Carlo... I can only remember seeing the "nemuri neko" at Nikko and some cats occasionally represented in ukiyoe...never in tosogu.

I'd speculate that the Japanese female is rarely seen on Japanese sword tosogu also?

Regards, Geo.

[watsonmil]

Dear Charlie and Ford,

My assertation that " Owls " ( fukuro ) would be a rare subject, comes from two sources: An art reference book :

Japanese Animal Art , author : Lea Baten, published by Shufunotomo Co. Ltd. ISBN : 4-07-974943-0. The author states in part on page 76 with respect to the owl, " Of all the birds of Japan the owl is the most unlucky and its cry is an omen of death. As it is a creature with nocturnal habits, a strange and frightening cry, a rapacious instinct and soundless flight, it is not surprising that it is mistaken for a ghost with unholy intentions. Except in studies of natural history, the owl is rarely shown in Japanese Art. Some artists avoid the evil eye by showing only its back or portraying it with closed eyes. "

 

The second source is : In my years of collecting, I have personally seen that I can recall only two examples in Kodogu, ... one being a MODERN Fuchi made by a non - Japanese artisan ?? ... and the second in an old auction catalogue depicting a tree with an owl ( back towards the viewer ) but appearing to be gazing at the moon. This on a Kodzuke. Perhaps in different parts of Japan the owl is viewed differently depending upon local folklore and tradition. At any rate that is what my reasons were for naming the owl as a rare subject. Carlo, ... mentioned " cats ", ... and I would have to agree, ... I can not remember ever seeing a cat depicted.

 

... Ron Watson