How rare are Kiri Ha blades?

[Lindus]

I have this blade that was my first fully mounted civil sword, came from the Dr.F.A.Turk collection and prior to that from Germany around 1920.

Mumei, blade 33cm {O/all 44cm} , Sori around 3mm, width at the Machi 2.7cm,at the Yakote {Difficult as this blade is of a form that did not have one} 2.5cm,Thickness at the mune machi 5mm.

 

Nevr been polished since it came from Germany and as the multiple Hi would in most case's dissapear have restrained my self on the rare occasion I had funds.

 

Would be interested in members opinion as to age, always thought it to be Koto but.... mounts are follow a dragon theme{Habaki,Saya & Kodzuka} while the Saya and tsuka mounts are of waves in silver. The ugly Tsuba if of a Chinese scene and seem odd on this O'Tanto.

 

In an idle moment your thoughts would be appreciated folks.

 

Roy {wet,windy and miserable Cornwall UK}...The weather not me

[cabowen]

You tend to see them in sue-koto and early shinto. The oni-bocho made by a Mizuta smith is well known. Oya-Kunisada made them as well....They are fairly rare.

 

This blade looks to be in that period of time. The hi could be re-cut when polished...

[Lindus]

  cabowen said:

You tend to see them in sue-koto and early shinto. The oni-bocho made by a Mizuta smith is well known. Oya-Kunisada made them as well....They are fairly rare.

 

This blade looks to be in that period of time. The hi could be re-cut when polished...

 

 

Thanks , I did not know that Hi could be re cut...who?

would be nice as I intend to keep this.

 

Roy

[cabowen]

  Lindus said:

  cabowen said:

You tend to see them in sue-koto and early shinto. The oni-bocho made by a Mizuta smith is well known. Oya-Kunisada made them as well....They are fairly rare.

 

This blade looks to be in that period of time. The hi could be re-cut when polished...

 

 

Thanks , I did not know that Hi could be re cut...who?

would be nice as I intend to keep this.

 

Roy

 

 

When the blade is sent to a professional polisher, they will have a horimono-shi or swordsmith who can do this if requested....

[Lindus]

  cabowen said:

  Lindus said:

  cabowen said:

You tend to see them in sue-koto and early shinto. The oni-bocho made by a Mizuta smith is well known. Oya-Kunisada made them as well....They are fairly rare.

 

This blade looks to be in that period of time. The hi could be re-cut when polished...

 

 

Thanks , I did not know that Hi could be re cut...who?

would be nice as I intend to keep this.

 

Roy

 

 

When the blade is sent to a professional polisher, they will have a horimono-shi or swordsmith who can do this if requested....

 

 

Who would you recomend or is that a question that most fear to answere,PM me if it is. Also is the blade worth that attention.

 

Roy

[Eric H]

  cabowen said:

Oya-Kunisada made them

...as well as shodai Tadayoshi

 

This type of katakiriba zukuri became popular from the start of the Shinto period, but is rarely found in later times.

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Kata-kihira zukuri was popular since Kamakura period, it was produced by Sanjo Munechika, Rai Kunitoshi, Awataguchi Kunitomo etc.... We can also find this kind of zukuri in Shinshinto times (Masahide, Natoane, Gassan Sadakatsu etc....).

[Lindus]

  Jacques D. said:

Hi,

 

Kata-kihira zukuri was popular since Kamakura period, it was produced by Sanjo Munechika, Rai Kunitoshi, Awataguchi Kunitomo etc.... We can also find this kind of zukuri in Shinshinto times (Masahide, Natoane, Gassan Sadakatsu etc....).

 

 

So the answere to my question is that pretty much all swordsmiths of all periods did this,thank you gentlmen.

Roy

[cabowen]

  Jacques D. said:

Hi,

 

Kata-kihira zukuri was popular since Kamakura period, it was produced by Sanjo Munechika, Rai Kunitoshi, Awataguchi Kunitomo etc.... We can also find this kind of zukuri in Shinshinto times (Masahide, Natoane, Gassan Sadakatsu etc....).

 

I don't think we can say kiri-ba was ever "popular" based on their scarcity today. As I said, most of the ones seen today date from sue koto and early shinto. There are early and later examples but they seem to be even rarer...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

  Quote

I don't think we can say kiri-ba was ever "popular" based on their scarcity today. As I said, most of the ones seen today date from sue koto and early shinto. There are early and later examples but they seem to be even rarer...

 

You confuse kiri-ba and kata-kiriba which are not the same, kiriaba was only found on very old blades (chokutô)

A quick search on google shows that Katakihira is not so rare. Below three examples, (one mid Shinto and two Shinshinto)

 

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/09317.html

 

http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/touken/ ... su/562.htm

 

http://www.japanesesword.com/Images/Swo ... 5wakX.html

[cabowen]

  Jacques D. said:

Hi,

 

 

  Quote

I don't think we can say kiri-ba was ever "popular" based on their scarcity today. As I said, most of the ones seen today date from sue koto and early shinto. There are early and later examples but they seem to be even rarer...

 

You confuse kiri-ba and kata-kiriba which are not the same, kiriaba was only found on very old blades (chokutô)

A quick search on google shows that Katakihira is not so rare. Below three examples, (one mid Shinto and two Shinshinto)

 

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/09317.html

 

http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/touken/ ... su/562.htm

 

http://www.japanesesword.com/Images/Swo ... 5wakX.html

 

 

 

Yes, I am guilty of playing loosely with the terminology. I am referring to katakiriba blades, as this is what the op was talking about.

 

Finding three example out of the thousands of swords on the net still qualifies as rare in my mind....For every thousand swords I have seen, maybe I have seen one katakiriba. Even if it was 1 in 100, I would call that rare. Maybe semantics.

[Jean]

Except the one dtd 1716, shinshinto is koto revival (mainly).

 

These blades were as said Chris very much in flavour in Muromachi up to Kanei, I am too lazy to make a search in the archives, but you will find a topic where it is mentioned that they often originated from Kyushu

[Jamie]

One just sold on Ebay.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

[Jean]

Kyushu - Satsuma

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

About katakihira zukuri, speaking purely sugata (architecture) we must not forget that all kogatana are made in that style and so, that makes this kind of sugata very common.

[cabowen]

  Jacques D. said:

Hi,

 

About katakihira zukuri, speaking purely sugata (architecture) we must not forget that all kogatana are made in that style and so, that makes this kind of sugata very common.

 

I thought we were talking about swords....

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I guess katakihira zukuri blade like this one is fairly more rare than tanto or wakizashi.

 

[Jean]

Not long ago, on sale, on NMB :

 

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8187

[sanjuro]

Have we lost our way here?

 

Jacques D is saying that katakiriha is more rare than tanto or wakizashi. also that since kozuka (kogatana) are all katakiriha, then they are more common.

Tanto and wakizashi are classifications of sword by length not blade style, whilst katakiriha is a style of blade. Kozuka (kogatana) are not swords. Can we compare apples with apples please, rather than apples with potatoes?

[machinist]

With some carving

http://www.japanszwaard.nl/zc11.html

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Wow, apologies, i should say : I guess katakihira zukuri blade like this one is fairly more rare than katakihira tanto or wakizashi.

[Jean]

  Quote

Jacques D is saying that katakiriha is more rare than tanto or wakizashi

 

Not exactly Keith, not exactly :lol: :lol: you have missed something :D (probably a word)

[sanjuro]

OK..... got it!

Sorry Jacques. Read it wrong I shall now open my mouth only in order to change feet!