Could anyone think this is real?

[estcrh]

Authentic Pair of Edo Period Face Mask Menpo Armor Guard made of cast iron. Very rare offering for the discerning collector

Some things are easier to figure out then others...http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-EDO-Samura ... 3024wt_932

 

 

[Lindus]

Authentic Pair of Edo Period Face Mask Menpo Armor Guard made of cast iron. Very rare offering for the discerning collector

Some things are easier to figure out then others...http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-EDO-Samura ... 3024wt_932

 

 

 

 

 

Well sort of Eric

Some time ago I bought a mask from a chap who dug it up while laying new drains outside a Theater, the bottom half was obviously old and genuine but nose and cheeks had been added later and were as rusted as your example. So I drove down to see old friend and major Armour collector/restorer John Anderson. He stated that the Hanbo section was early and good while the adde part was not bad and late Edo. Will try to find the pictures.

 

Not sure about the teeth though

 

Roy

[Lindus]

Found them, although the phot of the original is not so good the others illustrate what at first may be rubbish can sometimes surprise. The lower part of you illustration seems to be genuine and possible Miochin.

 

 

You can see in the "After" Photographs where the later addition was riveted on,John suggested that although interesting I should remove this. Then I set about removing the surface rusy, surpringly the original Japanese lacquer on the inner surface is around 80% intact.

 

 

Roy

[IanB]

Eriic, eBay item looks to be a bog-standard Nara style mask with an obviously modern bit of rusty iron sheet added. I've seen quite a few attempts at creating somen done like this - one, at a very prestigious auction house, which looked half reasonable until you looked inside. The real mask was properly lacquered whilst the new upper part had been given a coat of red paint on top of the rusty surface. The glowing writeup in the catalogue rather coyly talked about the brow-plate being 'somewhat later' - Yeh half past six last Tuesday! In the same sale was a zunari kabuto with an oni's face modeled in lacquer on the front. A good sniff and you could still smell the epoxy resin. Again a fancy writeup and outrageous estimate. Amusingly, I had seen the original it had been copied from a few weeks earlier in the Watanabe Museum in Tottori.

 

Roy nice Kaga style hanbo. In my opinion done by one of the Unkai. I used to have almost its double, with the same filed lines but with a nose and a rather sparse black mustache. These Unkai pieces all seem to have the squat, square-jawed look.

Ian Bottomley

[Lindus]

Eriic, eBay item looks to be a bog-standard Nara style mask with an obviously modern bit of rusty iron sheet added. I've seen quite a few attempts at creating somen done like this - one, at a very prestigious auction house, which looked half reasonable until you looked inside. The real mask was properly lacquered whilst the new upper part had been given a coat of red paint on top of the rusty surface. The glowing writeup in the catalogue rather coyly talked about the brow-plate being 'somewhat later' - Yeh half past six last Tuesday! In the same sale was a zunari kabuto with an oni's face modeled in lacquer on the front. A good sniff and you could still smell the epoxy resin. Again a fancy writeup and outrageous estimate. Amusingly, I had seen the original it had been copied from a few weeks earlier in the Watanabe Museum in Tottori.

 

Roy nice Kaga style hanbo. In my opinion done by one of the Unkai. I used to have almost its double, with the same filed lines but with a nose and a rather sparse black mustache. These Unkai pieces all seem to have the squat, square-jawed look.

Ian Bottomley

 

Hallo Ian,Long long time, still in the wild north?.

 

Unkai, well that is a bonus,thanks. The point was that with those two if the price was really right you could end up with two presentabl Hanbo, with a little work of course, always a shame to miss out on something as I ahev done in the past for lack of just a second look.....major example as follows............

 

Regards

 

Roy

[IanB]

Roy, Yup, still up here in the frozen wastes. It won't be long now before the glaciers move back in.

Love the helmet bowl. Very interesting - note the two rows of rivets in the koshimaki. Looks like a good late Muromachi piece.

 

Ian

[Lindus]

Roy, Yup, still up here in the frozen wastes. It won't be long now before the glaciers move back in.

Love the helmet bowl. Very interesting - note the two rows of rivets in the koshimaki. Looks like a good late Muromachi piece.

 

Ian

 

I can only quote the current owner and a letter he recieved from the Armour society in Japan, " How did you get this,it is so rare and we know of no other outside of Japan, it is good tha it is in the """""""" collection"....I saw it, was offered it, declined it and passed it on

 

Roy

[estcrh]

I have also found some items which have older parts and more recent but still old additions..but in this case the 2 items pictured are completely modern..I can absolutely guarantee it. Recently within the last few weeks a veritable army of these (menpo somen?) things were for sale in Japan and as usual they are now being trickled down to people as authentic.

 

As Ian noted most people who buy items like this will probably make the effort to finish them before trying to pawn them off on unsuspecting people but these characters do not even bother doing that..and notice the lack of pictures, no doubt so that the WELD marks can not be seen.

 

Here is a chochin kabuto were the kikko shikoro appears to have been added later and maybe not even made for this purpose but both pieces still undoubtedly old items. A restored, updated, and or repaired period item is far different than completely fake.

 

[IanB]

Eric, Assembling odd pieces to keep something in use has always been common. I am constantly reminded how valuable old iron was in the past. The helmet bowl you show was obviously from a very reasonable chochin kabuto and would have been far too good to chuck away. When the kikko work was added I cannot tell, but that it has been is shown by: The fact that the hoop that holds the bowl in the extended position is missing - as shown by the fact that its pivot points have been filled with soft-metal rivets. The original maedate tsunomono has been removed and again rivets and the kamon kanamono have been used to block the original holes. The use of kikko is quite sensible since it could be folded up under the collapsed bowl without any problem. A nice thing, although I'm not sure about the dressing gown cord.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

Ian, your right, its a mess....but I like it for some reason....it was sort of resurrected...and it does fold up well. ....

[Lindus]

While we are on the "Show and tell" how about this.

Pre Internet days a chap called me offering to trade a helmit for an old Maidate, said he thought it was Japanese but could be Spanish and as he had fished out of a river in Wales a year or so befor and then left it in the garden shed, he would stick it in the post on appro{Boy were we trusting in those days} so off went the Maidate and in came this thing,,to my surprise the bowl was complete saved by a thick coat of silver oxide paint,no Shikoro but in those days it was going to be fun whatever.

 

Two weeks of paint stripper,Fibre glass art brushes and the use of a small electric dentist drill a little treasure appeared, the fiber glass bush or more like a propelling pencil is a marvelous way of removing rust and not damaing patina, if you have not tried one , go buy, you will enjoy the ease and finish it gives.

 

The lack of Shikoro made the who thing out of balance so I knocked one up and had a go at lacing, not as difficult as I thought. Although the purist would perhaps frown at this I still get a kick when I see it. Next to have my Maidate back but the chap would not part with it so when you see the pics my apologies, that home made as well.

 

Thanks chaps, have wanted to say that for ages but my wife just does not grasp the concept of boys toys from rivers in Wales.

 

Roy

[IanB]

Eric, It had occurred to me that the kikko work was recycled, and yes it was. It started life as the front gessan from a dou. Brilliant!

 

Roy, a very nice momonari bachi with the unusual feature of a fukurin covering the joint flange. They were of course inspired by Spanish cabacets and were very common in the Momoyama since they were relatively easy to make and could be made of thick material and hence bullet proof. To continue the salvage theme, in Liverpool Museum is one, gold lacquered with a shikoro of horse-armour scales. One plate is a single piece, the other is made up from about 20 small scraps all riveted together.Obviously with the lacquer on the outside and a lining inside, you would never know.

 

Ian

[estcrh]

Roy, you saved that kabuto and did a good job on the shikoro and maedate. Ian, the kikko piece is from a dou or possibly a haidate, either way kikko items are hard to find and usually in bad condition, someone found an ingenious use for it.

 

[Iekatsu]

It should be noted that the two "Somen" at the start of this thread have no original components, the lover halves being modern reproductions resembling Nara style Ressei Me No Shita. I have posted an example below for comparison (fig.1). The tell tale signs are the machine pressed features, thinness of the plate, cuts to aid in the forming of the nose section and the Ori-kugi created from bent round stock. Also pictured is an example that found its way into the Galeno collection (fig.2), a comparison of the two with the above in mind reveals it as a fake also. This is a good example of how items can be modified or dressed up to deceive collectors.

 

Fig.1

 

Fig.2

 

Roy,

 

That Hachi is superb.

[IanB]

Absolutely correct. The whole thing is modern. Oops, should have spotted the nose construction.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

It should be noted that the two "Somen" at the start of this thread have no original components, the lover halves being modern reproductions resembling Nara style Ressei Me No Shita. I have posted an example below for comparison (fig.1). The tell tale signs are the machine pressed features, thinness of the plate, cuts to aid in the forming of the nose section and the Ori-kugi created from bent round stock.

 

An excellent example of someone having an opinion on an item in question and then stating what aspects of the item back up the stated belief. I wish more people would take the time to tell other people the reasons for their critiques and not just make blanket statements.