Do you collect swords as art or as artifact?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

my point is that there is more importance placed in general on old things in the West than in Japan...more of a concern about preserving history.

 

Talk me about wabi-sabi and the feeling old things gives to japaneses...

[cabowen]

my point is that there is more importance placed in general on old things in the West than in Japan...more of a concern about preserving history.

 

Talk me about wabi-sabi and the feeling old things gives to japaneses...

 

Wabi-sabi is often lost on mainstream Japanese. It has been replaced with "boro-boro".....

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Wabi-sabi is often lost on mainstream Japanese.

 

As study of NihonTo as an art form. Would you tell me that it is very common in Japan ? Please discern from the practice of martial arts with ancient swords. Just "Art".

 

Not so sure religion, at least in a Western sense, plays any significant role in this in Japan.

 

Still remaining the differences in the concept of religion (with or without eschatology), I was referring to the Japanese archeologists and historians asking for study on Imperial mounds.

[cabowen]

Wabi-sabi is often lost on mainstream Japanese.

 

As study of NihonTo as an art form. Would you tell me that it is very common in Japan ? Please discern from the practice of martial arts with ancient swords. Just "Art".

 

Well, they are called bijutsu-token (art sword) and are displayed primarily in art museums....

 

Not so sure religion, at least in a Western sense, plays any significant role in this in Japan.

 

Still remaining the differences in the concept of religion, I was referring to the Japanese archeologists and historians asking for study on Imperial mounds.

 

That is a modern phenomenon from what I understand...

[Ford Hallam]

For what it's worth I would have to throw my 2 yens worth in with Chris. It seems to me also that the impression many Westerners have of the Japanese people being devoted to preserving the past is something of a romantic illusion...

 

and as for any sort of meaningful appreciation of wabi-sabi among the general population....it's probably more revered as a quasi-spiritual aesthetic outside of Japan.

[cabowen]

For what it's worth I would have to throw my 2 yens worth in with Chris. It seems to me also that the impression many Westerners have of the Japanese people being devoted to preserving the past is something of a romantic illusion...

 

and as for any sort of meaningful appreciation of wabi-sabi among the general population....it's probably more revered as a quasi-spiritual aesthetic outside of Japan.

 

Living in Japan I had an old car, sometimes wore old clothes, and lived in an old house. My Japanese friends always gave me a hard time- boro boro car, boro boro house, etc....I would always say no, not boro boro (run down, old, junky), wabi sabi! That always got a big laugh....

 

There are many fallacies when it comes to Japan and its culture....There wasn't much interest in things old until recently, just like most think the Japanese are nature loving and so tuned in to the environment...yeah, they like to do things like bulldoze an entire mountain and forest and then rebuild a concrete imitation on top of it, calling it Nature Land.....

 

I would recommend reading van Wolferen's "Enigma of Japanese Power" for a fairly spot on analysis of many of these fallacies.

[Ford Hallam]

Another scary read for Nipponophiles would be Demons and Dogs by Alex Kerr

 

Simply reading the reviews on Amazon will give one a taste of his thesis.

[cabowen]

Another scary read for Nipponophiles would be Demons and Dogs by Alex Kerr

 

Simply reading the reviews on Amazon will give one a taste of his thesis.

 

Agreed. Read that when it came out....

[Chris Osborne]

Going to have to pick up that book. Thanks Ford.

[Surfson]

Very interesting thread guys and I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said. It is amusing to me that the conversation only was had among gaikokujin and can't help but wonder what the view of the typical native Nihonjin collector of Nihonto would be.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

That is a modern phenomenon from what I understand...

 

Not modern is the fact permission t is denied with any sort of excuses, even if recently something seems to be changing.

 

For what it's worth I would have to throw my 2 yens worth in with Chris. It seems to me also that the impression many Westerners have of the Japanese people being devoted to preserving the past is something of a romantic illusion...

 

and as for any sort of meaningful appreciation of wabi-sabi among the general population....it's probably more revered as a quasi-spiritual aesthetic outside of Japan.

 

Living in Japan I had an old car, sometimes wore old clothes, and lived in an old house. My Japanese friends always gave me a hard time- boro boro car, boro boro house, etc....I would always say no, not boro boro (run down, old, junky), wabi sabi! That always got a big laugh....

 

There are many fallacies when it comes to Japan and its culture....There wasn't much interest in things old until recently, just like most think the Japanese are nature loving and so tuned in to the environment...yeah, they like to do things like bulldoze an entire mountain and forest and then rebuild a concrete imitation on top of it, calling it Nature Land.....

 

I would recommend reading van Wolferen's "Enigma of Japanese Power" for a fairly spot on analysis of many of these fallacies.

 

 

All this looks more a continuity of the process to absorbe western way of acting (consumism) rather than an original Japanese behaviour, but I can't and wantn't counter two high and respected authority as you on this field.

 

BUT I have to ask, Ford, the instution of "National living treasures" for many traditional activities isn't a sort of preserving the past ? We in Italy failed to achieve such a level of preservation of skillfullness in many of our once world-renowned capacities as wooden shipuilding and even Murano glasses. Most if not everiyhing is left to the good will and money of privates.

Is your very same job totally seperated from any link to the past ( attempt to recreate right patina as it should be) that might make him appreciated by japaneses ? Or your market is for westerner only ?

[Ford Hallam]

Carlo,

 

I think there are 2 slightly differing views on what "tradition" means. On the one hand there is the preservation, unaltered, of an art form or craft that is based on an idealised "best period" of that tradition. The other view regards tradition as something alive and continually developing. What is essential in the second case is a full appreciation and absorption of the past. Only out of this immersion can authentic contemporary expressions grow.

 

The "Holder's of an Intangible Cultural Asset" bear a very important responsibility in sustaining a clear understanding of their arts and the underlying spirit and philosophy that guides them. These are exceptional people, without question, but how much of what they feel and display in their work is genuinely grasped , in it's true essence, by the average person is debatable I think.

 

For myself, I am very interested and excited to explore the past that informs my adopted tradition but my ultimate aim is not merely to preserve the past and make copies. I hope to make work that is of this time yet still embodies the same creative spirit that inspired the masters of the past. For me, all swords and tosogu are undeniably artefacts but among them I look for those that exhibit, what I recognise, as aesthetic expression. Those items I seek are what I would call art and I attempt to learn from these examples of the art form.

 

This is the pattern many artists in other fields have very successfully followed. Potters and textile artists, in particular, seem to embody their traditions very well while producing contemporary work that is wonderfully fresh and vital yet completely integrated into their tradition's continua. I am attracted to the work of a few contemporary sword-smiths for the same reasons.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Well said. How this is in contrast with the sources you suggested to read before ?

[David Flynn]

I don't think one has to be a Nihonphile to appreciate and or, collect Japanese swords. I would definately not call myself a Nihonphile. I was drawn to Nihonto from the old 60s show, The Samurai. Loved it when I was a kid. I have also done some martial arts (not good at any). I am also a Buddhist(Korean, not Japanese). Except for an interest in some Asian culture, I couldn't care less about how or what the average Japanese thinks or even feels towards their culture and heritage. I also don't hold Japanese swords in the reverence that many Nihonphile would probably consider, appropriate. I do see swords as: Art; Weapon; and collectable. Except, that the majority of "Experts," are Japanese and the Japanese Art sword associations are the ones who issue the papers, I would probably have little to do with anything much Japanese. This doesn't mean that I don't hold various Japanese in high regard, I'm just not in Awe. Being Australian, I'm sure, most Japanese would feel the same towards my country and culture (even though, the rest of the world considers us to be cultureless :D ).

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks Carlo,

 

I mentioned "Demons and Dogs" because it discusses a very different Japan from the one most Japanese art/culture fans imagine.

 

The book only briefly discusses the arts and creative traditions but the commentary on the distortions of the original teachings of Sen no Rikkyu as presented today by the main schools of tea are a good case in point. The practice of tea has become so rigid and codified that a 17th cent tea master would probably be horrified at how it appears to be completely devoid of any naturalness, spontaneity or even humanity. The tea ceremony was taught to allow practitioners to become at one with their surroundings and able to commune in a way that wasn't bound by usual social conventions and rules, a direct experience of each other. Ironically, the tea ceremony today has become one of the most rule bound and rigid of the the traditional arts with every minute detail prescribed.

 

Similarly, a survey of books on Ikebana (in Japanese) will reveal a great number of beautifully illustrated "how to" guides that indicate precise angles and measurements to produce the accepted and idealised forms. This is not the preservation of a tradition, it's the robotic repetition of examples that completely miss the essence of what the art is supposed to be about. There are great masters of the art, no question, but that the general population avidly imagines this mindless copying of formula is what a traditional art is about is cause for concern. Some of the worst offenders are well meaning and devoted Western disciples.

 

Donald Ritchie and Donald Keene are two writers well worth reading for a more insightful and nuanced understanding of Japanese traditional arts.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The "Holder's of an Intangible Cultural Asset" bear a very important responsibility in sustaining a clear understanding of their arts and the underlying spirit and philosophy that guides them. These are exceptional people, without question, but how much of what they feel and display in their work is genuinely grasped , in it's true essence, by the average person is debatable I think.

 

This get us back on how many Japanese as well can really claim to see the sword as a pure form of art. That's not a thing limited to westerner.

 

 

Similarly, a survey of books on Ikebana (in Japanese) will reveal a great number of beautifully illustrated "how to" guides that indicate precise angles and measurements to produce the accepted and idealised forms. This is not the preservation of a tradition, it's the robotic repetition of examples that completely miss the essence of what the art is supposed to be about..

 

Being a boinsaist by 15 years (some years before was a less serious matter) and having atteined lessons with good Japanese teachers of the "new generation" I can get what you mean but I've also to add that the rules are taught

to put you on the right way for your own artistical expression. Most of the modern day Japanese and western bonsaists doesn't blindly follow rules trying new ways, as you, still remindings the fundamentals.

I assume the way is taught Ikebana is the same, and it is possible the authors are a little overstreching the matter.

 

But I've not read them so far so get my feeling just for an uneducated point of view.

[reinhard]

Keep it up, Carlo. You are on the right track.

Neither swords nor tosogu nor any other kind of Japan's old culture allow short-cuts. "Fresh, unconventional, new" approaches to old Japan's culture (usually sermonized from a Western point of view) have old tradition, going back to Meiji-days and before. They are leading serious students to nowhere.

 

reinhard

[cabowen]

There was an interesting discussion I heard today on public radio wherein how and why people value things. An interesting statement made was that people value items based on the item's history/past. For example, baby shoes worn by one's baby, identical to another pair, are valued much more than the identical pair due to the fact that there is a history that creates a value to the parent. Simple sentimental value. It was discussed how it wasn't the item, per se, that contained the value, but the history associated with it. From this perspective, it could explain the artifact approach to collecting- people actually value the history associated with the sword, perhaps sometimes in addition to whatever artistic value it may or may not contain. This would apply not only to the "keep the gunto koshirae" perspective but also to a great extent the favor shown to older blades or blades from the age of the samurai.

 

To someone without this attachment to the historical connotation who placed value more on inherent quality, period and other historical associations would lose importance....

[george trotter]

There was an interesting discussion I heard today on public radio wherein how and why people value things. An interesting statement made was that people value items based on the item's history/past. For example, baby shoes worn by one's baby, identical to another pair, are valued much more than the identical pair due to the fact that there is a history that creates a value to the parent. Simple sentimental value. It was discussed how it wasn't the item, per se, that contained the value, but the history associated with it. From this perspective, it could explain the artifact approach to collecting- people actually value the history associated with the sword, perhaps sometimes in addition to whatever artistic value it may or may not contain. This would apply not only to the "keep the gunto koshirae" perspective but also to a great extent the favor shown to older blades or blades from the age of the samurai.

 

To someone without this attachment to the historical connotation who placed value more on inherent quality, period and other historical associations would lose importance....

 

To answer your initial question, I collect swords as both art and as artifact...with (after 26 years in a state museum), a stronger leaning towards artifact. For me, everything is technically an artifact, but for this purpose, I define artifact as that which has "association", ie. history. Your comments above illustrate perfectly the attraction of the artifact side of the question. I am a "save the gunto koshirae" type of collector. After all, gunto fittings scream history, use,and a purpose that can be immediately identified and in many cases the maker and the owner can be documented and researched.... this is a great advance over the average shinto/shinshinto blade which is historically mute (other than the maker). Was it made for a samurai, a merchant...who? There was no war, the country was at peace 1615-1868. Was it made as art, for vanity? Even the koto swords have little to say historically...these too are mostly mute. Beautifully made some of them, but what else do they say?

 

If I may pose a question relating to this art/artifact interpretation...how do members (including the "Naijin") assess the swords produced by the Showa Jidai Yasukunijinja Tosho?...learned Japanese sources say they were made with purity of spirit, purity of traditional materials and techniques and in the style of respected koto smiths whom today's nihonto collector would place in the "Art" category...are they art and/or artifact?...and also, if one came into one's collection, should its gunto koshirae (the only koshirae it has ever had), be kept together with the blade, or thrown away?

 

On the question of those who rigorously and diligently pursue the "art" of the Japanese sword...may I ask what it was that initially attracted you to swords as art rather than clocks as art? (the tradition and craftmanship, the dedication and excellence of the craftsmen is apparent through all cultures and eras and is parallel to the tosho)...yet you chose swords...was it because of the "romantic" historical associations attached to the sword?

No offense intended here...just discussion...

Curious George.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

shinto/shinshinto blade which is historically mute (Even the koto swords have little to say historically...these too are mostly mute. Beautifully made some of them, but what else do they say?

 

I don't dare to ask you what Jokoto says to us...

 

(after 26 years in a state museum),

 

A car museum in Detroit ?

[george trotter]

shinto/shinshinto blade which is historically mute (Even the koto swords have little to say historically...these too are mostly mute. Beautifully made some of them, but what else do they say?

 

I don't dare to ask you what Jokoto says to us...

 

(after 26 years in a state museum),

 

A car museum in Detroit ?

 

Carlo, I was hoping you would share your views with us?

 

Perhaps tell us what Jokoto says to you...?

 

Perhaps tell us why the type and location of a museum would influence your views...?

regards, George.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

nai Gai Gay... no I'm italian. Period.

 

However, as to ask about somebodyelse background has begun coommonplace here

I felt somewhat permitted to do so, let's apologize for the rudeness.

 

Anyway if you've been paid for 26 years to care antiques I can't really get how you can say swords (but Gunto) tells us nothing.

 

Anything preserved has an history to tell. If I wasn't at work I would post an excavated sword that *possibly* tell us the origins of Ayasugi hada, and that surely is linked to the schools that later have worked this way.

[paulb]

George,

I hope I can answer your question simply form my point of view. The answer is I collect swords as both Artefact and Art. The reasons I chose swords as a focus to collect are many but I guess the main ones are:

Obsessive interest in history above all other subjects since I was 5 years old and predominantly military history.

Alongside this a love of art, amongst my many other failings I am a failed painter.

Within the sword you have the fascination of martial history combined with supreme beauty in creating something whichin the words of Cameron-Stone is "the nearest thing to perfection made by human hand".

As I have progressed the technical side of manufacture combined with the aesthetic of a blades appearance has, to some extent, taken priority over the historical significance. I believe this beauty is best seen in koto work.

With regard to Yasakuni swords I have seen few but those I have seen vary between those I would cherish as part of a collection while others are as interesting as a yard of pump water, so I cannot make a blanket decision as to their aesthetic worth (nor can I for any other sword period each blade should be judged on its own merits)

I am rather perplexed at the emotion such debates create. There is no wrong or right answer, people collect what interests them. Provided they do no harm to a piece while in their care and it is well cared for their motives can and should remain their business.

[george trotter]

Carlo,

I'm not asking about anyone's "background"...I did ask on another thread what the experience/qualifications of a certain person were that entitles him to make dismissive or rude comments which are not explained, nor is any experience quoted to justify such comments.

Since you "answered" for him there and said he was a "Naijin", I was going to ask if you were one of the "Naijin" too, but edited it out as being rude. The reason I was asking if you were "Naijin" was because your responses above about Jokoto and Detroit cars added nothing to the discussion and were similar to the comments from the other person you said was a "Naijin"....sorry.

 

As for the comments I made about the gunto etc...it is just a view, an opinion, I was hoping you and other members would comment...put your views...and why you hold them....comment on the art or artifact of Yasukunito etc...that is the original question posed...do we collect "Art or Artifact".

 

Just on the excavated "asasugi hada" sword...what do you think...is it art or artifact?

 

Regards,

George.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Since you "answered" for him there and said he was a "Naijin", I was going to ask if you were one of the "Naijin" too, but edited it out as being rude.

 

Guess you're mistaking me with Guido.

 

Just on the excavated "asasugi hada" sword...what do you think...is it art or artifact?

 

It's surely more art than a Gunto.

[george trotter]

Oh yes, Sorry Carlo...it was Guido...humble apologies.

 

Of course, the excavated sword you speak about is of great interest to scholars...expecially as it is relevant to hada development. ...still, personally, I'd rather have a nice Gassan Sadakatsu in gunto mounts

 

Hope I'm not being flippant.

Regards,

George.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

.still, personally, I'd rather have a nice Gassan Sadakatsu in gunto mounts

 

Me too, mount included, that's why I'm searching where Gassan school comes from.

[george trotter]

Carlo,

We agree on this historical basis for swords and sword families. I really hold important the following up of the family/sword-school research...I have even followed the research on gendai smiths by going to Japan and speaking to tosho and their families...sadly, as time has passed, this is probably no longer possible for most of the Showa gendai tosho that interest me...although I have spoken with the Gassans in relation to a cross student connection to one of my gendai tosho...and thankfully, they continue, and their records are very good.

 

Of course, the art and quality of the blade is what attracts me strongly... enhanced (for me) by gunto fittings, especially with the historic documentation (ka-mon on handle, surrender/capture details etc), but equally, it is the possibility of historic research back to the smith and his line...fantastic. This applies whether the blade is gendai (my favourite) or older to koto. I must say, for me...the gunto fittings are a clear marker for history (to me), but the usual "samurai" fittings, although often exquisite artistically, cannot tell me much of the history of the blade's usage.

I hope this helps the discussion.

Paul...I thank you also for your comments, very well put, and I think your words apply to the majority of us here.

regards,

George.

[Henry Wilson]

I am rather perplexed at the emotion such debates create.

 

What have Detroit cars got to do with anything? Has this thread not run it's course???

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I am rather perplexed at the emotion such debates create.

 

What have Detroit cars got to do with anything? Has this thread not run it's course???

 

 

I assure you from now on it will go straight, at least on my part.