Do you collect swords as art or as artifact?

[cabowen]

After all the "I like.... because of...."- babble, it might be interesting to know what a person, who really knows what he's talking about, has to say about this matter. Mr. Nobuo Ogasawara, retired Head Conservator of the Kokuritsu Hakubutsukan in Tokyo, held a lecture about "MEITO or What Makes a Masterpiece?" in 2002 in Solingen, Germany. Text (ger. and engl.) can be found in:

 

No doubt students of the sword need to know what makes a meito in particular and quality in general, but that shouldn't stop people from collecting the best swords they can, swords they like, within their financial means. In addition, there are many factors at work in what makes a meito, not all of which are directly related to the quality of the item. The same can be said for the reputation of smiths and their work. Some are over rated, some under valued. Does anyone actually believe that those craftsman named Ningen Kokuho are the absolute best at their craft?

[mdiddy]

What is your definition of artifact?

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/artifact

 

I suppose one would have to have insight into the mind of the smiths at the time to determine how exactly they viewed their creations

 

I agree we can not get into the mind of the smith. However, based on this previous assertion:

 

Swordsmiths originally made blades to meet a functional, utilitarian demand, not an artistic aesthetic driven by the market.

 

I would estimate the smith was first making a practical weapon (though to his eye it must have been delightful and perfected art).

[mdiddy]

Art has no such time requirement-something can be art from the moment of creation.

 

Were swords purely art at the time of their creation?

 

[cabowen]

Art has no such time requirement-something can be art from the moment of creation.

 

Were swords purely art at the time of their creation?

 

Guess that would depend on who you asked, when you asked, and what the sword was under consideration...

 

Pre-haito-rei, swords were not considered artifacts or art when originally made, but older swords became artifacts, and perhaps were considered to be more, perhaps art, at some point. Today, all swords made before the end of WWII are considered artifacts. Some are also considered art. Swords made after the war are not yet old enough to be artifacts and according to Japanese requirements, are considered art.

[mdiddy]

Pre-haito-rei, swords were not considered artifacts or art when originally made, but older swords became artifacts, and perhaps were considered to be more, perhaps art, at some point. Today, all swords made before the end of WWII are considered artifacts. Some are also considered art.

 

I think that pretty well covers all the bases and is a fair conclusion for us.

[george trotter]

Hey Reinhard,

I saw your post...thanks for the link to Ogasawara sensei, it is interesting to know what he thinks....but it would be interesting also to know what you think. The question asked in this thread is "Do you collect swords as art or artifact?".

So, what do you collect Reinhard...and why?

What do you think of the WWII gendaito such as the RJT and Yasukunito etc...art? artifact?...or?...and why?

 

George.

 

.

[estcrh]

Carlo,

We agree on this historical basis for swords and sword families. I really hold important the following up of the family/sword-school research...I have even followed the research on gendai smiths by going to Japan and speaking to tosho and their families...sadly, as time has passed, this is probably no longer possible for most of the Showa gendai tosho that interest me...although I have spoken with the Gassans in relation to a cross student connection to one of my gendai tosho...and thankfully, they continue, and their records are very good.

 

George, I am interested in knowing what the showa gendai smiths actually thought about the work they were doing...did they consider themselves to be artists or craftsmen...was it a patriotic duty for them or a job? Do you have any idea.

[doug e lewis]

wow! this thread really covers some ground. this is what i get from it so far, and i am probably being too simplistic, but...

so in the beginning a sword is a weapon, some better than others, and the best were the ones bought by those samurai who could afford the best from the best smith. the lower rank samurai were left with OK swords from the smith of the day; and the common non-samurai warrior with spears & what swords they were issued or scavenged from the battlefield. [especially prior to the Sengoku?]

 

the best swords were cared for by the nobles and wealthy samurai who could afford them, appreciated them for their functional craftmanship and had the means to preserve them. which allows us to have them now. i do not think these samurai considered the fine swords they were preserving and handing down "art" in the same sense they considered a fine painting, sculpture, or poetry "art". And certainly not in the way we consider them Art. Fine examples of the craftsmanship and talent of the smith; and for some even embodiments of certain kami.

so we only have, for the most part, the best --or even the best of the best. rarely do beat up, nicked and unimpressive swords like my lowly ichi kizu survive -- and for good reason. they served their function, then gone. recall the causal way swords in the early 1800's were casully destroyed in testing their ability to cut a kabuto! and these were some fine swords from the accounts i have read [thank you NBM for directing me to those articles]

 

so we have a functional piece of craftmanship, turned into heirloom, morphing into modern notions of artistic sensibility.

unless your want to take your Masamune to tamishigari class and see what it will do.. it is Art!

and sometimes a sword is just a sword ... like as sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

 

Doug

[george trotter]

estrch wrote:

George, I am interested in knowing what the showa gendai smiths actually thought about the work they were doing...did they consider themselves to be artists or craftsmen...was it a patriotic duty for them or a job? Do you have any idea.[/quote

 

Unfortunately I did not ask them this specific question, but my recollection of their description of their motivation in swords covers both artist and craftsman. Their descriptions of their endeavours in swordmaking included "doing their utmost" to produce a worthy sword. To "serve the country in its time of trouble" was another phrase, also "strive earnestly day by day".Looking at the quality of the swords of one family (still going in the elder brother's son line), I can say that they did indeed strive to produce a practical sword, but with their own intrinsic "family line" characteristics...both of which are features that attract my admiration. Newspaper photos taken in WWII show this smith and his fellow family smiths making swords...they are all dressed in formal tosho attire, as are their deshi. From this I would assess that they held to the "traditions" and "purity" of the swordsmiths ethos...doing ones best every day and producing the best sword they can EACH time.

This line is the Okishiba of Osaka and descends from (anciently) the Sanjo line to the Heianjo Nagayoshi line to Heianjo Fujiwara Nobushige line to Okishiba today. I have Okishiba Heianjo Yoshisada (see Rich Stein Oshi Database). His brother Masatsugu (studied with Enomoto Sadayoshi with Gassan Sadayoshi) made a sword for Prince Higashikuni (see F&G Oshigata Book (pink book) page 32/33). There is no doubt of their patriotism as my sword has a slogan "Jinchu Hokoku".

I hope this helps with your query...for Japanese sources see Token Bijutsu August 1969 #151 Nihon Gendaito Shoshi by Uchiyama sensei.

Regards,

George.

[Ford Hallam]

I think it may be worth remembering that for the Japanese prior to the Meiji period there was no artificial distinction between art and craft at all. The word for art, geijutsu, had to be especially created to refer to the Western notion of the arts. Similarly, in Europe, this artificial divide only came about relatively late in human society, around the time of the Renaissance.

 

I would also suggest that it's unlikely that the better smiths in pre-Edo period Japan were merely regarded as armourers or tool makers. Swords have always been worn as symbols of status and authority and it's fairly obvious from the care taken in their manufacture (way beyond what would be required if mere functionality was the only criteria) that the skill and artistry of these smiths was appreciated when they were alive.

 

Yes, the blades appearance is very strongly affected by it's function, form follows function as the adage regarding good design goes, but the degree of refinement of the various aspects that make up the physical form of Japanese blades must surely indicate a serious concern with purely aesthetic qualities.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Were swords purely art at the time of their creation?

 

What was Osoraku at the time of his creation ? Art or practical craft ?

[cabowen]

I have spoken with many smiths, both those who made swords during the war and those who have made them both during and after the war.

 

The feeling that sums up their attitude to swordmaking might best be described in the Japanese by the word "majime" (真面目). This word means "serious, diligent, honest" and is a highly respected attitude in Japan. You can fail horribly at something, and as long as you were "majime" in your attempt, you will still command respect.

 

Of course smiths were patriotic during the war and did the best they could. The ones I have spoken with told me that they made the best swords they could to protect their soldiers and country. I never got the feeling that they thought of themselves as artists making obsolete, anachronistic symbols for some elite officer class. They felt an urgency and importance in their craft. Most of the older smiths were humble, self-deprecating, and had a love for their craft. In contrast, I met more than one post war smith who was filled with self-importance and considered himself an "artiste". Perhaps people become what they are told they are....

 

Perhaps something to consider is the often mentioned concept of beauty in relation to nihon-to. Most of the smiths I spoke with talked about the beauty of the sword arising from the near perfection attained in the meeting of form and function. Refinement, purity, and functionality are all highly valued attributes in Japan. Additionally, when one actually sees in hand work by a Japanese master craftsman, be it swords, kodogu, carpentry, or many of the other traditional arts, and ponders the lines, joints, and evenness of surfaces, the craftsmanship is often at a level that will actually astonish and make one wonder how human hands could create something so incredibly perfect. So, in addition to the perfection of form meeting function, there is also in top work a perfection in execution.

[george trotter]

I have spoken with many smiths, both those who made swords during the war and those who have made them both during and after the war.

 

 

Most of the older smiths were humble, self-deprecating, and had a love for their craft. In contrast, I met more than one post war smith who was filled with self-importance and considered himself an "artiste". Perhaps people become what they are told they are....

 

.

 

Chris, the old swordsmiths and families I spoke to were modest also....they said the same modest things about diligence in making the best sword they possibly could to fulfil its intended purpose in service of the country.

I wonder if the self-importance you noticed in some modern "artistes" reflects the change in the Japanese sword making ethos since swords were declared "art"? ....I mean by this that maybe their efforts and mind-set are now tuned to the ethos and mind-set of the "art dilitante" consumer? rather than the warrior-user of WWII?

 

George.

[estcrh]

near perfection attained in the meeting of form and function

Todays nihanto still has the form but what function? It is now relegated to being a piece of art were as a tansu etc can still be used for its original function.

[sanjuro]

Eric.

 

Although swords are no longer used in warfare, a sword that still meets its potential for function is equally as valid as one that was worn and used by a samurai of the 13th century.

Many of the swords we see today in fine and original condition were never drawn in combat, yet they had the potential for efficient function. Todays swords are no less valid because they are unused for the purpose of combat. That they are unused does not lessen their potential for use.

 

Art sword or not, in order for a piece of steel to be classified as a sword, it first has to be a functional or potentially functional edged weapon, otherwise it is just a sword-like object.

[cabowen]

 

I wonder if the self-importance you noticed in some modern "artistes" reflects the change in the Japanese sword making ethos since swords were declared "art"? ....I mean by this that maybe their efforts and mind-set are now tuned to the ethos and mind-set of the "art dilitante" consumer? rather than the warrior-user of WWII?

 

George.

 

When Japan became the country "that could say no" in the 1980's, they were absolutely rolling in cash. Many smiths were charging huge sums of money and were selling all the swords they could make. It was a major boom. Suddenly, being a swordsmith making "art" became a very profitable business for many. Some smiths became minor celebrities and rubbed shoulders with other well known figures in the "art" world. I can not help but think that the money and name recognition turned some of these craftsman into the "artistes" they are today. Fame and fortune can change people....I met many smiths, including mukansa and Ningen Kokuho smiths. Most were very humble, approachable people, but there were a few prima donnas.....

[sanjuro]

To return to sanity and the topic in view........ Chris, What do you see as the current trend among Tosho? we have I am sure an up and coming generation of younger, enthusiastic apprentices. What of them? Are they diletante artists? or honest craftsmen?

There is a young Australian Togishi I have some contact with in Japan. He seems to be of the 'old school' and looks forward to working in his own right and furnishing we few Australians with at least a decent polishing resource. Is he representative of the next generation of craftsmen as you see them?

[cabowen]

To return to sanity and the topic in view........ Chris, What do you see as the current trend among Tosho? we have I am sure an up and coming generation of younger, enthusiastic apprentices. What of them? Are they diletante artists? or honest craftsmen?

There is a young Australian Togishi I have some contact with in Japan. He seems to be of the 'old school' and looks forward to working in his own right and furnishing we few Australians with at least a decent polishing resource. Is he representative of the next generation of craftsmen as you see them?

 

The current trend is to find another field of employment. The last 20 years of recession have been catastrophic to the craft. I know many smiths who are not receiving orders and are basically out of business. There isn't much, if any, of a coming generation. We are truly seeing a crisis before our eyes. One might argue that the boom in the '80's brought in too many smiths and the consolidation seen now is only normal but the feeling I get is that it is much more than that. The mukansa smiths are still getting orders but the rest, not so much.

 

Togi-shi and the rest of the craftsman are suffering too, though as would be expected, not as badly as the smiths.

 

Several polishers I know have told me that they would like to train someone willing to work in the West but that viable candidates have eluded them. Part of the problem is that not everyone who starts, finishes. It takes some time to evaluate whether or not the student has what it takes to succeed. Sometimes a student is turned out after a year or two. I think they would have a tougher time doing that if it was a foreigner...

[sanjuro]

Chris.

 

That is sad news indeed. The young man I have contact with, is nearing the end of his apprenticeship. I have three swords he can work on immediately. Surely I am not alone in wishing to see the art fostered and flourishing in the west? Sure, Australia is an Asian country whether we acknowledge it or not, but the southern hemisphere would be poorer for the lack of a qualified togishi. We have no access to any outside of Japan or the USA as it is.

[Kurogasa55]

When a Japanese soldier took his families relic and put it onto ww2 fittings it changed to sword back to a weapon and all the fittings become part of the swords history...all fittings and related items that came with the sword should go with the sword when it is sold, but the sword does not necessarily need to be kept in the fittings.

 

A future owner of the sword ( we do not really own anything..we just get to take care of it for awhile) may appreciate having some of the swords history accompany the sword even if the current owner does not. Think about some future owners delight a hundred years from now when they can show people the swords history.

 

I could not agree more. I think the history of the sword is just as important as the art portion of it

[Jamie]

I would say both. I wouldn't collect them, if they weren't swords. I enjoy and appreciate the art and the different forms from schools and era's, but they are weapons. I think the Koshirae should be kept the bladee for historical context. Well Whatever an owner chooses to do is his own choice and I do respect that. I would keep the koshirae with the sword though. And I am certainly not fond of WWII fittings for katana.

[yuki_nakamura]

For me it's an artifact cause it has always been the weapon of last resort. :D

[sanjuro]

The thought occurs to me sometimes when I hold or clean one of my older blades, "What would the tosho think of his work now"? after hundreds of years the product of his skill is still a viable weapon and still beautiful. A blade that he made with only the thought of saving one mans life....... once only. Beyond that expectation there was only fate to trust. I would hope that he would be proud of its survival. Yes I know its sentimental and perhaps a little silly. However, I owe it to that craftsman to preserve his work and perhaps someday pass it on to another collector of like mind.

Just one of those things that come into your head sometimes.

[cabowen]

We are only renting, as they say.....

[sanjuro]

Chris.

 

True, but it seems to me that by collecting we accept a sacred trust. Not only to preserve what a skilled craftsman has produced, but also to honour the men that used the blade we now treasure as art or as artifact. Both those who made it and those who caused it to be made and lived by it. A blade is not just a piece of pretty steel. It is the measure of the life of he who made it and he who wielded it.

[cabowen]

Chris.

 

True, but it seems to me that by collecting we accept a sacred trust.

 

I agree. That is why it bothers me, as it should all who own these blades, to see them "polished" by amateurs.....

 

I doubt anyone on this board will argue your point, yet many here will turn right around and let amateurs "polish" these blades....Go figure....

[sanjuro]

I sort of look on the brighter side........ Yes there will be casualties, but the swords ruined by homespun enthusiastic restoration will most likely be low quality blades. Those that have potential will be priced above the pockets of the well meaning idiot. The only danger to this theory of course is the well meaning idiot that has the money to buy a decent blade then proceeds to make an utter mess of it. They however are in the minority, (or are they?) and hopefully will remain so.

Isnt that what we are all about on this forum? Educating the well meaning idiot to leave a blade alone until he knows enough to send it to an expert for restoration.

We will of course fail in some instances, but our successes surely ensure the survival of more blades that would otherwise be ruined.

(I'm trying here to be a glass half full type of person). :D

[bone]

Take heart guys. The advice you give provides an important service to those of us who are simply overwhelmed when we begin collecting. I know it doesn't seem like it sometimes... but we're listening.

 

And we appreciate it.

[drbvac]

I read through most of the posts again and it is interesting the thoughts one has and expresses depending on how they view these objects we collect - art or artifact - As I stated earlier I collected all edged weapons and the Nihonto were "extra special" as they are the ultimate sword. No comparison with most others in terms of the function and use as an edged weapon. I am sure that the art side came later as smiths and polishers noticed by following certain techniques they were really beautiful as well as still functional. That said at what point are they "really" not blades anymore than an engraved set of silver plated pistols or engraved shot guns are "guns"

 

The ultimate artifacts as edged weapons and the art of nihonto are probably not the exact same blades at any given time. I know if I had spent a great deal of money hundreds of years ago for an artistic blade, and had one just as effective in terms of its real function - I wouldn't take it to battle . Nor would one take an engraved 30,000 dollar shotgun duck hunting in a swamp - I may be off in terms of my thinking but those who only realized the art side of nihonto after they were in awe of them as swords may. Do you think the owners many generations ago knew the difference or did they just grab the sword and run out the door to defend the castle >

[paulb]

Brian,

It is another interesting point that is impossible to answer with certainty. However I worte some time ago about a naginata naoshi blade which was attributed to early Shikkake work. Based on the principal that most Yamato blades were made for fighting monks and naginata were generally utilitarian it would seem reasonable that they suffered heavily in battle and did not last as well as swords. This was an example that had lasted through some 27 generations, it had been shortened to mount as a wakazashi but other than that was in extremely healthy condition.

I do not believe it could have been so well preserved had its quality not been recognised very early in its 650+ year history and it had been removed from daily conflict. So I assume an earlier owner cherished it as a work of aesthetic beauty and it was held in high regard by subsequent generations.

Of course it could just be he hit someone important with it and preserved it for that reason alone.

I also think that the appreciation of swords as art was well documented in the 15th and 16th century. Perhaps more accurately I should say the craftsmanship was recognised and valued. whether this would be described as art or quality in terms of functionality takes us back to where we started.