Do you collect swords as art or as artifact?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

If you collect blades, kodogu, and swords as art, then gunto koshirae have no relevance. If you view these items as artifacts and wish to preserve them in situ, as it were, then I can understand the motivation to keep them together. Clearly it all depends on your perspective, art or artifact.....

 

Chris, you "tout court" exclude the ability of humans to appreciate both art and artefact aspect of the same item at the same time.

[SwordGuyJoe]

All,

Perhaps I am dense, but someone mentioned keeping the blades with the koshirae because it is a part of the blades history. First I completely agree with this comment. The one piece that hasn't been mentioned throughout this discussion, that I am not sure I am surprised or not, is the main reason I prefer the 'gunto' koshirae to the 'samurai' koshirae - regardless of the age - is to maintain this koshirae for national history. Let me first say that ancient koshirae is beautiful and illustrates what a true craftsman can execute when they reach the apex of their artistic ability. Certainly gunto koshirae does not hold a candle to these examples and I am not here to argue otherwise.

 

What I will mention is the beauty and tragic nature of the gunto examples. Japan historically was a militaristic nation and made a life of war (certain eras excluded of course). This history of war lead them to their participation and eventual defeat in WWII (and the conflicts prior). However, at the time they were one of the most power military powers in the region and arguably the world. Flash forward to present day and they are a country with a history of strong military prowess that is now being denied them (I am not saying I agree nor disagree with this). I think of a warring square peg being forced into a peaceful round hole.

 

When others look at the gunto mounted nihonto they may see a blade destined for shirasaya or correct 'period' mounts. When I look at a gunto mounted nihonto, I see a tragic artifact (enclosing an art blade) telling of the things that were, but will never be again. When I look at a 'samurai' mounted piece I take note of the beauty of the piece, but I am not struck with the same sense of tragedy and loss.

 

I know few will agree with me, but I prefer the gunto pieces for that reason. I mean absolutely no offense, but just stating my humble opinion.

[Tcat]

On the subject of gunto koshirae I offer my opinion with regards to my viewpoint on what role nihonto (or more pertinantly, what role blades in their WWII mountings) played in the history of the Japanese sword and its mountings as a whole.

 

...exclude the ability of humans to appreciate both art and artefact aspect of the same item at the same time.

 

I belive a regulation gunto koshirae is not art. I do not feel that I need to argue this point here...

To the best of my knowledge and as has been discussed previously on this thread, not all koshirae in the history of the Japanese sword were indeed art.

Gunto koshirae were only in use during the period Japan was fighting the war, and though the military campaign may bave been of high significance it did not take up a considerable stretch of time when considered against the length in years of sword culture in Japan.

 

Baring these factors in mind, I have an old blade, probably mid 14thC, which was mounted in a WWII gunto koshirae when I recieved it.

I would choose not to separate the WWII koshirae from the blade but would also choose not to store/display them together as a sword. Although I am familiar with the perspective of collecters like SwordGuyJoe, I prefer other aspects of beauty to the tragedy embodied by gunto koshirae, though I understand his sentiment.

 

My personal reasons for this are as follows:

I believe blades to be more beautiful when viewed separately from gunto koshirae.

I believe the sword will have more historical significance if it is preserved in its entirety including koshirae than if it is not. I would find it difficult to justify selling a gunto koshirae separate from the blade, but it should be known that I do not intend to primarily benefit monetarily from my hobby of collecting old Japanese swords...

 

One of the many reasons nihonto remain interesting to me is that I percieve them to be special objects.

Why? - Because I believe them to be one of only a very few objects in this world, when, given the right circumstances are capable of transcending the often applied acid test "art or craft".

How? - Some blades are pure art and were created to be so. Some blades were designed purely as weapons and display perfectly the aspects of the traditional Japanese craft of speedily producing an exceptionally well functioning sabre.

 

In the best old blades however, the combination of both remarkably high levels of variation and decorative creativity, and the fact that they were both executed at the highest possible technological level of the time makes them to me, both art and craft, this is unique.

 

Nowdays, smiths are producing either art or craft depending on the sword they make and who their client is. Either the sword was designed primarily for usage or primarily for display; however when steel swords first arrived in Japan from the asian continent there was no such dichotomy - they were chinese weapons.

Somewhere in between now and then, a time was reached where not only were all Japanese swords unique in style decoration and appearance but were also produced using the highest metalurgical technology then available.

It is under these circumstances I believe that certain swords fall into both the catagories of art and craft in the strictest sense.

 

but I am probably just being romantic

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

In the best old blades however, the combination of both remarkably high levels of variation and decorative creativity, and the fact that they were both executed at the highest possible technological level of the time makes them to me, both art and craft, this is unique.

 

The fact that in appraising swords as art there still remains points related to swords as craft seems to support your feeling.

 

Words as "Powerful Sugata", "fatal flaw" and "perfectly balanced" comes to mind.

 

However it's good to remind that swords as art are always good utilitarian swords too, good utilitarian swords not always are swords as art too.

 

At least talking about old ones...

[Kurogasa55]

When a Japanese soldier took his families relic and put it onto ww2 fittings it changed to sword back to a weapon and all the fittings become part of the swords history...all fittings and related items that came with the sword should go with the sword when it is sold, but the sword does not necessarily need to be kept in the fittings.

 

A future owner of the sword ( we do not really own anything..we just get to take care of it for awhile) may appreciate having some of the swords history accompany the sword even if the current owner does not. Think about some future owners delight a hundred years from now when they can show people the swords history.

 

 

Well said

[reinhard]

And therefore people hear what they want to hear and all efforts are in vain.

 

reinhard

[estcrh]

Well it really comes back to personal taste, there is no iron clad rule as what to do. I know that my gunto signed Shichi sai Hokoku (seven lives for my country) with Kijimomo nakago, in made to order mounts with top end fittings and same covered saya with hard lacquer on top will stay that way for as long as I own it. Shudder to think where it is going after I pass.

 

Steven, you bring up a very good point, how many of us have made provisions as to were our valued items will go in the event we pass away before we have to or are able to sell them or give them away ourselves? Or do you just get buried with them?

[xxlotus8xx]

Or do you just get buried with them?

 

Better count on the backhoe for my funeral.

Nihonto. Gibson and Rickenbacker Guitars, Marshall's its ALL coming with me!!!

[estcrh]

 

Better count on the backhoe for my funeral.

Nihonto. Gibson and Rickenbacker Guitars, Marshall's its ALL coming with me!!!

Sounds like a great garage sale!

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

And therefore people hear what they want to hear and all efforts are in vain.

reinhard

 

Hi Reinhard.

 

Maybe I'm wrong but possibly I get what you mean, if you're commenting the possibility of appreciation of both aspects together.

 

I think the historical/craftmenship aspect can be appreciated but *can't* be expanded.

This is its limit.

While the art aspect is a neverending process. If you decide to appreciated both *together*, you'll not waste energies and sources to expand one in spite of the other .

 

Only the understainding of sword as art can be expanded and refined in this scenario.

 

Of course if the major interest is in militaria and craftmenship, we fall in a different category, with its own rules and fields of researches.

 

If I'm mistaking the aim of your post I apologize. If I get it correctly feel free to give more feedbacks on my above statement as I'll consider them with interest.

[David Flynn]

It all comes down to personal taste. Just because someone likes something and someone else may not, doesn't mean much at all. There will always be trends, which come into vogue and go out of vogue. All in all it still comes down to the individual. There really isn't, a right or wrong, just opinions.

[Guido]

I think Stephen recently made one of the most profound statements ever on NMB:

... not all want to be a Nihontophile grand Pooba, they just want a bit Samurai lore. I think we need to get over our self's in trying to make each and every newbie a scholar of Nihonto.

This is very true and very sad at the same time. It ultimately calls the very existence of NMB into question, or at least its current format.

[sanjuro]

Hi Guido.

Re your last comment. May I, without taking exception to it, further its content?

There will always be those of us who wish to be the Nihontophile grand poobah. This is a good thing since such an aspiration is laudible. Those that achieve it, invariably publish articles and books which further the knowledge base upon which we all come in greater or lesser degrees to rely upon. Not all men however, are scholars either by nature or by circumstance. Yet those who are not scholars by nature or circumstance may still have an interest and even a passion for nihonto. Without the scholar such men would be lost for reference material. Indeed, they may never discover the depth and wonder of the nihonto without the guidance found in the work of scholarly men. I think perhaps the world of nihonto would be a poorer place indeed without the fresh enthusiasm of those who rely upon those who went before them and inquired where inquiry was previously lacking.

 

I say it is not sad that we have in the world of nihonto, those who seek knowledge and those who are fortunate enough to possess it and are willing to impart it to others. The student of today may well become the guru of tomorrow, when by inquiry his mind is opened and he too seeks knowledge. Is that not what the NMB is really about?

[Brian]

I don't know what the existence of the NMB means in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately this was and is a way for me and others who are not near decent swords to share info, experiences and advice on Nihonto.

I can tell you one thing for certain though. It is very noticeable to me that the beginners of a few years ago who were asking the novice questions, are very often still here today, and it is them who are now giving the (good) advice and answers to the newcommers today. And not basic advice or incorrect statements...but good, solid advice. I see this often.

That tells me something.

This isn't supposed to be a substitute for the right way to learn about Nihonto. It is supposed to be a social and informal meeting place where people can share ideas and info. It only breaks down when people expect it to be something it is not.

If people desire another format, I have often offered to set up a separate and private section where people can have access on request and they can do things any way they like.

Wish I could see you all at the DTI, but it will be quite a few years before I will have the funds to attempt that again.

 

Brian

[Wickstrom]

I am a bit of a each, torn between art and artifact. Although i admire everything i collect as art i believe it is our duty to preserve them to the best of our ability. A sword should never be separated from its koshirae specifically for this reason. When it comes to this we must forget about money because is it really worth it? in 20 years will it have been worth it to rip part of the blade's story out of history in exchange for a small monetary gain? Although there is no shortage of gunto mounts, we can't deny that every one of them is unique. They are all made the same way, but every one has been carried to a different place, Housed a different blade, fought in a different battle, and eventually laid down on the table in front of a different commander. Like every sword, every koshirae is unique.

[estcrh]

Andrew, I have found that some western collectors have a very negative attitude towards Japan during the ww2 era and only want to think about a romanticized samurai era...they just as soon remove any reminder of the ww2 association their sword has and I can understand their feelings, many people feel the same way about German ww2 memorabilia. I would be interested to hear what someone of Japanese ancestry has to say on the subject, especially since there are way more ww2 related swords outside of Japan then inside.

[estcrh]

Keven has a perfect example of a beautiful old sword in ww2 mounts..would you just toss out ( or sell ) the mounts?

 

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8214

[reinhard]

I have found that some western collectors have a very negative attitude towards Japan during the ww2 era and only want to think about a romanticized samurai era

 

Conclusion of a very simple mind or a primitive way of provoking? Frankly, I don't really care.

 

reinhard

[estcrh]

I have found that some western collectors have a very negative attitude towards Japan during the ww2 era and only want to think about a romanticized samurai era

 

Conclusion of a very simple mind or a primitive way of provoking? Frankly, I don't really care.

 

reinhard

Response of a SARCASTIC BITTER OLD MAN!!!!!

[reinhard]

Response of a SARCASTIC BITTER OLD MAN!!!!!

 

"Sarcastic" is correct, "bitter" is definitely wrong, "old" is disputable and depends on the perspective. I'm 48 years old. But seriously: If you don't want to make a complete fool out of yourself you better pick up some reliable books about history and stop making insinuations. This is neither about (plain) attitude nor about samurai-romantisiscm. It is about knowledge.

 

reinhard

[estcrh]

Response of a SARCASTIC BITTER OLD MAN!!!!!

 

"Sarcastic" is correct, "bitter" is definitely wrong, "old" is disputable and depends on the perspective. I'm 48 years old. But seriously: If don't want to make a complete fool out of yourself you better pick up some reliable books about history and stop making insinuations. This is neither about (plain) attitude nor about samurai-romantisiscm. It is about knowledge.

 

reinhard

Good god man..your 48 and you already have the attitude of a cranky 80yr old...I have plenty of history books..maybe your take on history is different then mine.

[Chris Osborne]

When a Japanese soldier took his families relic and put it onto ww2 fittings it changed to sword back to a weapon and all the fittings become part of the swords history...all fittings and related items that came with the sword should go with the sword when it is sold, but the sword does not necessarily need to be kept in the fittings.

 

A future owner of the sword ( we do not really own anything..we just get to take care of it for awhile) may appreciate having some of the swords history accompany the sword even if the current owner does not. Think about some future owners delight a hundred years from now when they can show people the swords history.

 

I think it would be hard to sum it up much better than that, whether speaking of older blades mounted for the war, gendaito, or simply mass produced gunto. For good or ill, these items were made for and accompanied these swords through an extremely significant time in the worlds modern history. If for no other reason, this should guarantee them a measure of respect from anyone interested in the blade that resided in them for a time, even if they have no interest in such things.

 

This discussion caught my attention since at the moment I'm taking a break for a few minutes from working on a WWII era Gendaito. This blade has had an appropriate shira-saya made and thankfully the present owner did recognize the significance of the mounts and choose to have a tsunagi made and keep them with the blade as they should be. Certainly the sword need not be stored in or even displayed with these mountings, but while it is not of any artistic value to keep the war mounts, it is certainly of historical value as well as a part of the swords history.

[estcrh]

Chris..any chance of seeing some pictures of the sword when its finished being polished?

[Chris Osborne]

To answer the original question, which I failed to do in my rambling previous post, I collect swords as both art and artifact. I've had quite a few older blades of low quality that were basically of no or little artistic merit come my way over the years. While certainly not pieces I would have any interest in studying, I would also not toss them out either. Good or bad they are all objects from an era that I have a great(albeit romanticized) fondness for, and I always feel a bit giddy holding an old Nihonto, even if it isn't an art piece.

 

 

Chris..any chance of seeing some pictures of the sword when its finished being polished?

 

Don't know if there's much interest in these parts for seeing such but sure.

[Kevin]

Throwing away gunto koshirae reminds me of the fate of square pianos back in the mid-50s. There was no interest in them, so antique dealers gutted them and turned them into bedroom tables and suchlike. My parents picked up one in Minehead when they went out for a daytrip - Mum was a pianist who was missing having a piano, and this looked the job to her. The antiques dealer couldn't comprehend her not wanting it gutted. It cost as much as a pound of bacon.

 

It is dated 1789 and is far more beautiful than the one in the Victoria and Albert Museum. It is probably now worth tens of thousands. Probably because so many were gutted that it now has extreme rarity value. Oh, and it is still in working order AFAIK and can be played.

 

Give it another few decades and shin-gunto koshirae will be antiques. OK, so some folk may not like them aesthetically and many (though not all) were mass produced. So was the Model T Ford, and that isn't particularly artistic either. Would you junk an original Model T on the grounds that it was mass produced and not a work of art?

 

Kevin

[cabowen]

Would you junk an original Model T on the grounds that it was mass produced and not a work of art?

 

Kevin

 

No, I would sell it to someone who collected cars on the grounds that it is mass produced and not a work of art.

 

I don't think there is any disputing that both art and artifacts have monetary value in the marketplace.

 

My question focused on the distinction between the two and whether or not people looked at nihon-to as art or artifact.

 

Seems many view them as artifact, some as both, and fewer still as simply art.

I would wager that if this was asked in Japan, we would probably get the opposite result....That to me is quite interesting. Can archeology be considered a Western science?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Can archeology be considered a Western science?

 

Hardly. You live in Japan, don't you ? Ask around who invented Tanko and reply to him how many chances there are they were invented by Koreans.

 

If you can avoid the first sake bottle flying to you, you'll realize archeology is not a western science.

 

BTW, archeology includes also art objects. You better leave it out of the contest.

[cabowen]

Can archeology be considered a Western science?

 

Hardly. You live in Japan, don't you ? Ask around who invented Tanko and reply to him how many chances there are they were invented by Koreans.

 

If you can avoid the first sake bottle flying to you, you'll realize archeology is not a western science.

 

BTW, archeology includes also art objects. You better leave it out of the contest.

 

I know that archeology is practiced in modern Japan but really do not know when it started to be pursued on a scientific basis as it has in the west for quite a long time. I am simply wondering if the archeological mindset is spawned by tradition or something else among western collectors...

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I am simply wondering if the archeological mindset is spawned by tradition or something else among western collectors...

 

To this I can easly reply : it is spawned thru hard study and the free minds we have after the French revolution. Not differently from study of artworks af *any* culture.

In Japan it is still fighting with the traditions and religion. Same in Korea and China.

 

P.S. In this my perceiving might be a little uncommon and biased, as in Italy we literally walk on archeological sites almost anywere, most of them *also* of artistical importance, a thing that hardly occur anywhere else in the world.

[cabowen]

I am simply wondering if the archeological mindset is spawned by tradition or something else among western collectors...

 

To this I can easly reply : it is spawned thru hard study and the free minds we have after the French revolution. Not differently from study of artworks af *any* culture.

In Japan it is still fighting with the traditions and religion. Same in Korea and China.

 

P.S. In this my perceiving might be a little uncommon and biased, as in Italy we literally walk on archeological sites almost anywere, most of them *also* of artistical importance, a thing that hardly occur anywhere else in the world.

 

 

Not so sure religion, at least in a Western sense, plays any significant role in this in Japan...While there are museums dedicated to nearly everything in Japan, from cats to candles, museums like the Field Museum in Chicago or other such museums dedicated to cultural/natural history seem to be scarce. The only one that comes to mind of any importance is the Edo Museum which is really fascinating as it documents the history of Tokyo. It did not even open however until maybe 10-15 years ago.

 

Most Japanese do not like old things, especially those that belonged to people. They prefer to bulldoze perfectly good houses rather than live somewhere someone else once lived. Until the recent economy reality forced them to consider 2nd hand goods, they wouldn't think of buying used.

 

For a society so obsessed with eating every part of everything, I thought it very contradictory that they would routinely throw away 2 year old tvs (in perfect working order) and all manner of other perfectly good and usable household appliances, etc. and buy new...A collision perhaps of the old and new....

 

In any case, my point is that there is more importance placed in general on old things in the West than in Japan...more of a concern about preserving history.