why is Ebay so bad ?

[Herbert]

Dear Brian,

 

your posting is just fair and I fully agree that only very few out of a lot swords are worth buying on eBay. However I think this is still a great opportunity and lots of fun.

 

I'd dare to say that even a poor blade and bad condition will offer the novice collector lots of excitement and expirience. A bad sword can still serve as a good example for what to not want in a sword.

 

Here is the last blade I had bought on eBay a while back. I was the only bidder and it was cheap.

 

As you are all fine scholars of the Japanese sword I will not go into details for now but let you do the Kantei. I think it is a nice example of the school, time and maker.

 

Regards,

 

Herbert

[Herbert]

The last one ... I must however add that the blade was not in good polish hence some people may not have seen the beauty past the bad polish.

[paulb]

Dear Herbert,

It is true that I have heard of at least one example of a sword being bought on ebay which after polishing and submission to the NBTHK was awarded Juyo papers. So there is your treasure. Unfortunately this board is littered with countless examples of people who believed they were buying important swords but were ripped off. These examples out number the "important Sword" stories by many thousands to one.

If you have been successful and have such an important sword then well done you. With regard to recommending a cheaper place to buy important swords it depends how you view value, if you are prepared to waste countless dollars in the hope that you hit the jackpot once then there is no better place. For those who prefer a safer approach there are a number of very reputable dealers that I would be far happier to spend my money with. I may not get a treasure at rock bottom price but at least I can have faith in what I am buying.

Regards

Paul

[drdata]

Aside from all the negatives so well stated here, I find ebay is no place for bargains due to the world-wide attendance. In effect it fails due to its own success.

 

As a buyer I would want to be the only one at the auction. All to easy to sip beer and search ebay.

 

I find that guntos often go for crazy money and attribute to folks that saved so much by not having to physically attend a real auction they can afford to pay 2 x what an item is worth.

 

More than likely any real treasure will be spotted, even if mis-listed, and the bargain price disappears quickly.

 

Regards

[Veli]

Well, I can see its past beauty through tiredness and kakedashi...

 

BR, Veli

[Herbert]

Paul, I can agree to most of what you have said and infact there are many bargains on dealer sites. E.g. there have recently been sveral Juyo Token blades priced at 15k - 25k ... many of them being a steal with no risk.

 

I would encourage anybody to invest in the best qualiyt he or she can buy or better say afford as quality is more likely to keep its value and offer continued joy of studying it.

 

As far as eBay goes there are a lot of TBH level quality blades coming from estates and also few blades in the Juyo range. Often it is a gamble but if you play right you will hardly make a loss.

 

Then again - while this is offtopic - we should no emphasize on the paper aspect too much as anybody in the Nihonto world should be familiar with the many questions which papers have aroused and will continue to arouse. That's why I used the term important sword.

[Herbert]

Well, I can see its past beauty through tiredness and kakedashi...

 

BR, Veli

 

No hard feelings but you do not really see good yet ... your eyes still seem to be closed. There is no Kakedashi in this blade either.

[paulb]

please lets not get in to the paper discussion again, if you have been reading recent threads ypu will konw this has probably already been done to death. As always one must please oneself in how you choose to buy. For many the hunt is important and they get a great buzz from scanning auction sites. My concern is that because of the pit falls and dubious dealers on such sites it is not a good place to learn. there are already too few people studying this subject and it would be a great shame if newcomers were pushed away by bad experience on Ebay or other sites. Hence my strong anti Ebay for beginners view.

I fully agree that there are many good buys to be had on dealer sites at present also.

regards

paul

[pcfarrar]

I think it is a nice example of the school, time and maker.

 

Nice looking sword what is it?

[Herbert]

Paul, I can agree to most what you've said again but two points:

 

1. One problem is that there seem to be hardly any new collectors.

2. A new or better say young collector will hardly have the funds to buy on any other place than eBay. I started collecting when I was still attending school and no other place but eBay would offer me the chance to get my hands on blades at low prices. To me that's been a good school as the benefit was much greater than the drawbacks

 

One think you learn on the eBay street is to look fore more ... if you take a look at Playboy centerfold most people will agree she's a hootie ... however the more important and down to earth task is to find that hootie next door when she has not all the make up on her

 

It's the same with the blade I had posted. It is very easy to notice the polished down horimono but there is much more to it ...

 

Only looking at centerfold or Compton catalogs will just spoil the people and blind them.

[Herbert]

I think it is a nice example of the school, time and maker.

 

Nice looking sword what is it?

 

Thank you. Please have a guess. I will post images of the Nakago later on ... for now it's Shinsa time

[pcfarrar]

Thank you. Please have a guess. I will post images of the Nagako later on ... for now it's Shinsa time

 

It looks Koto Bizen to me but I could be miles off...

[Herbert]

The direction is absoluetly right

[Herbert]

Dear Jean, sanjuro, Stephen and Veli I would love to hear your Kantei on the blade. No risk, just fun! So throw in your wild guesses!

[paulb]

Hi Herbert,

I have to confess I am not a happy internet kantei body but I thought I would have a go.

shape suggests late koto period Oei or a little later and some Soshu influence. I am not sure what I am seeing but if that is strong utsuri I can understand where Peter is coming from with his Bizen bid.

There appears to be masame hada towards the mune and sunagashi within the hamon.

Based on the above I would ay either Sue Bizen or Sue Seki late Oei period

If Bizen then possibly a later Osafune smith such as Kanemitsu

Regards

Paul

Ps if it wasnt for the apparent Utsuri I might be tempted towards a Muramasa derivite based on shape and hamon.

[Herbert]

Hello Paul,

 

a good reasoning. Indeed the Utsuri is a major key in the riddle

 

Regards,

 

Herbert

[Herbert]

I am still waiting for the Kantei of our well educated membes Jean, sanjuro, Stephen and Veli before I disclose the smith / Nagako.

[Tokaido]

Hello Herbert,

my guess is Kanemitsu or Motoshige.

But since I expect some more flat tops of the (saka)gunome für Motoshige,

I go for Kanemitsu this time, mostly because of the chimney like *dust* drifting

up into the utsuri in the ji from the tip of the gunome.

Interesting sword

[Jean]

Herbert, not only it is difficult to make real kantei but all the more without any indications :

 

Here is for example the elements given for a kantei from a scanned blade (these scans are the best I know on dealers sites)

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/kantei/kantei107.html

 

Now from the pictures the hamon/kaeri makes me think of Kanemitsu

[Herbert]

Herbert, not only it is difficult to make real kantei but all the more without any indications :

 

Here is for example the elements given for a kantei from a scanned blade (these scans are the best I know on dealers sites)

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/kantei/kantei107.html

 

Now from the pictures the hamon/kaeri makes me think of Kanemitsu

 

Jean, thank you very much for your posting as it ilustrates what made me post in this very topic and jump the gun a little (but hopefully in a most friendly way). To me your posting illustrates the attitude of a rather ignorant and complacently armchair collector. I don't mean to insult you but that is my utter feeling and impression.

 

Jean, how can you advice anybody NOT to buy on eBay if you complain even about those pictures which I had posted. Don't consider it as a personal attack as I could xxx the name of Jean and replace with some other individual. But as I had put it before eBay is not for those who enjoy looking at centerfolds only but rather for the down to earth guy who wants the gal next door as he looks beneath the make up.

 

Pictures on eBay are often gonzo style and very bad quality.Sstill this shouldn't turn the buyer away. Oaky, it should turn some away because if there were too many buyers there would be nor bargains Back then I was the only bidder on this Tanto at USD 650.00.

 

I was talking about people being spoiled by looking and relying too much on their super duper high quality Nihonto books on catalogues. You can see this when receiving comments that the blade was just tiered. Yes it is tiered but still there is more too it.

 

Some of the member here have come up with a pretty good Kantei! Congratulations to all of you!

 

Even if someone had been miles off, it still would have been a good expirience to sit down and think about a blade. I would like to encourage any collector to view and study as many blades as he can.

 

I often hear you can not judge a blade through pictures ... yes of course it is best to have it in hand and best to have someone there who can point out all the bells and whistle first hand.

 

BUT how many pople do have such a chance?

 

- Those in the USA where there are clubs, a NBTHk branch and excellent shows

- Those in Germany who attend the NBTHK branch meetings

- Those in Japan of course ...

 

Most of the other folks will have to buy a blade to study it.

 

And yes it is in general safe to buy from a dealer or sell through him ... in general but not always rembering someone from Tulsa just to give one example ... one that cost me more than I had ever lost on eBay within several years.

 

Now back to the blade:

 

When I receivd this blade is was in pretty bad polish and a friend of mine kindly polished it for me. It is a Bizen Masamitsu who worked circa 1356-1394 (Embun to Oei period). There are currently 49 listed Juyo works by him. This one would have easily been the 48 if it wasn't for the Shintetsu. Current chances of it being awarded Juyo are probably only about 40%. Still it is a nice blade with much to look at and enjoy. Atleast it was wortyh of preserving it as it is definately on its last polish.

 

Reagards and good luck hunting for all the other eBay loonies as another kind member put it.

[Veli]

Too late... Would have said Osafune Motomitsu...

Veli

[Jean]

Herbert,

 

I am not criticizing your pictures, which are quite good but you did not gave any indications about the blade measurements which are elements from Kantei. You did not provide an overall picture of the blade so it is impossible to see the sori if any, the length, suguta.. When you bought it from E-bay, what were the pictures you had at your disposal? were there nakago pictures? Was it signed ? Could you have obtained them? so as measurements.

 

You did not provide the pictures before polishing, on which you took the gamble.

 

Furthermore, at the opposite of what you have said there are more and more newbies and these are the ones going to e-bay and buying 9 times out of 10 junks or fakes. See all the posts and you'll see them, the last one :

 

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8210

 

Kozori Masamitsu is a son of Kanemitsu who worked in the style of his father during the first part of his life, it will be dozen.

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/kanemit1.htm

[Guido]

The information provided by "sho-shin" is not correct - Masamitsu didn't belong to the Kozori group.

 

The founder of the Osafune school is thought to have been Mitsutada 光忠, followed by his son Nagamitsu 長光. The third generation is represented by Kagemitsu 景光, and the fourth by Kanemitsu 兼光. Masamitsu 政光 was a student of Kanemitsu 兼光, together with Tomomitsu 倫光, Motomitsu 基光, Tomomitsu 友光, Shigemitsu 重光 and Yoshikage 義景.

 

Masamitsu worked, as his teacher and fellow students, in the Sōden-Bizen 相伝備前 style, incorporating features of the then popular Sōshū school 相州伝 in their work. However, the Sōshū influence shows mostly in the shape of the swords, to a lesser degree in the Hamon, and the Jigane is pure Bizen style 備前伝.

 

Works bearing Masamitsu's Mei date from Embun 延文 through Ōei 應永 (because of the long span of time there's a theory that there must have been two smiths represented by this name); his early work resembles that of his teacher Kanemitsu, but is less massive and ambitious, and his Hamon, consisting of Gunome and Ko-Notare, is markedly more compact. On the other hand, his Ōei works are shorter, of a fairly narrow Tachi structure with more pronounced Sori, and contain more Chōjiba as part of the revivalist fashion trying to go back to the Kamakura way. It also had usually a straight type of Utsuri 棒映り.

 

Attached are a photo and an Oshigata of a Masamitsu blade from my own collection. The slim blade structure of this sword, combined with a thick Kasane, shallow Sori and elongated Chū-Kissaki, as well as the Midare-utsuri 乱映り, places it firmly at the end of the Nambokuchō period. Although it lost its signature due to shortening, it displays typical Masamitsu workmanship of outstanding quality, and therefore received a Jūyō Tōken designation without reservation of Den.

 

Looking at my sword and the fabulous eBay treasure presented by Herbert, there’s little evidence to support his Masamitsu attribution. If that tired Tantō would be a horse, someone had long ago shown the mercy to put it out of its misery. 40% Jūyō? You wish!

[Jean]

there’s little evidence to support his Masamitsu attribution

 

We have not seen the nakago; perhaps it is signed or not or perhaps this tanto is papered. I should rather think, it is signed.

 

40% Jūyō

 

I don't think so, there are a lot of tantos of this era or even earlier in very good shape to have this one Juyo, all the more than Juyo Shinsa has become very strict.

 

For comparison, here is one by Tametsugu same period, TH, Soden Style which was on sale end of June on Aoi-Art :

[Guido]

Jean, your line of "reasoning" is getting awfully close to me agreeing with Herbert on some points ...

[Herbert]

Herbert,

 

I am not criticizing your pictures, which are quite good but you did not gave any indications about the blade measurements which are elements from Kantei. You did not provide an overall picture of the blade so it is impossible to see the sori if any, the length, suguta.. When you bought it from E-bay, what were the pictures you had at your disposal? were there nakago pictures? Was it signed ? Could you have obtained them? so as measurements.

 

You did not provide the pictures before polishing, on which you took the gamble.

 

 

Hello Jean,

 

thank you for your posting. What you said is fair and you are correct in most of it. I shall post pictures of the blade before polishing.

 

I could have taken more pictures and provided the measurements but the point of this Kantei was to deal with the information I provided you and which was more than I had back then on eBay. This topic was about buying on eBay and my point is that judging a blade on eBay and one at a real Kantei / Shinsa is a totally different thing. The eBay hunter will have to look for different things and make up his mind.

 

Most of the participants in this little Kantei came up with Bizen Koto Utsuri ... enough to risk a gamble at USD 650.00.

 

Furthermore, at the opposite of what you have said there are more and more newbies and these are the ones going to e-bay and buying 9 times out of 10 junks or fakes. See all the posts and you'll see them, the last one :

 

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8210

 

The person who bought this blade did not say it came from eBay. Infact I recently noticed two "Samurai Swords" in the window of a well known local antiques dealer specialized in fire arms and edged weapons. Both where China trash and he was asking around 900 Euros per blade. When telling him that those were Chinese reproductions he just got pretty angry.

 

Hence it is not just eBay.

 

Never the less 99.9% of the swords offered on eBay are chinese junk. However those who only want to spend a couple of bucks will never be able to buy a real Nihonto. If they find out it was junk they still paid little for their lesson. USD 50.00 - 100.00 lost isn't much.

[Herbert]

Looking at my sword and the fabulous eBay treasure presented by Herbert, there’s little evidence to support his Masamitsu attribution. If that tired Tantō would be a horse, someone had long ago shown the mercy to put it out of its misery. 40% Jūyō? You wish!

 

Guido, Guido! Let's try to get you out of your anti-ebay closet! I understand that it must be frustrating for you to see people come up with decent stuff from eBay where you prefer taking the easy road and buying from your dealer next door ... but even an old dog can sometime still learn a trick if he remains a sharp and opend mind.

 

I never said that I had attributed this blade to Masamitsu. I am way to ignorant and imcapable of such a thing. I only read the Mei ... as it is signed by him and remains Ubu - making it a rare example as most of his stuff is O-Suriage, like yours.

 

I am in no position to judge the chances it would have at Shinsa. There are smarter people out there and I am happy to rely on their oppinion. Just that there's no misunderstanding: I didn't refer to Gudio Schiller with this statement.

 

So if you want throw an Ubu signed Masamitsu Tanto in the dust can then you are either very spoiled or ... well let's keep the gun calm ...

 

Dear Gudio, I would recommend studying the work of Masamitsu more carefully so the next time you see another work by him you are able to recognize it.

 

Maybe you would like to sit down with yours for a start ...

[Brian]

This is getting pretty bizarre and ridiculous.

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I am in no position to judge the chances it would have at Shinsa. There are smarter people out there and I am happy to rely on their oppinion.

 

Would be interesting to know who polished the blade.

[Veli]

Attached a scan from Fujishiro. My personal unlearned opinion is that it is a close match.

 

 

 

I still think the blade is very tired, but it does have some beauty left. If the owner is happy with it, I do not object by any means. What a magnificent piece it was before loosing the kawagane.

 

Veli