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Miike MITSUYO Imperial Household Sword

Ed Hicks

By Ed Hicks
in Military Swords of Japan

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Ed Hicks Community Regular

Ed Hicks

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I'll try to post photos of the blade...It is textbook Mitsuyo (Very interesting habaki similar mon as on the O-Tenta) and the hi are extraordinary...Kin zogan mei and a lot of mekugiana...The Imperial Household Sword mounts aren't too shabby either and are quite rare. Ed

Amon Collaborator

Amon

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Jean, a couple weeks ago I saw a nakago with eight bullet holes :shock:

There were almost more air in that nakago than steel :crazy:

 

Kind regards,

reinhard Proficient

reinhard

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This nakago wasn't bullet proof :laughabove:

 

Remember the golden rule: It takes

 

one mekugi-ana for Hozon Token

two mekugi-ana for Tokubetsu Hozon Token

three mekugi-ana for Juyo Token

four mekugi-ana for Tokubetsu Juyo Token

five mekugi-ana for Bijutsuhin

six mekugi-ana for Bunkazai

seven mekugi-ana for Kokuho

 

But seriously: This nakago is a laugh. Not because of the number of mekugi-ana but because of their shapes and placement. Old nakago don't look like this. BTW the kinzogan-mei is quite new and the habaki looks brand-new to me and not even of Japanese origin from a distance.

 

reinhard

Ed Hicks Community Regular

Ed Hicks

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Great find Ed. Planing to hold onto it for awhile?

Stephen, I'm not sure if I should keep this one...Too many holes in the tang and the habaki is too bright!!! I am amused at a few of the comments though, especially the one regarding the nakago and habaki. "But seriously: This nakago is a laugh. Not because of the number of mekugi-ana but because of their shapes and placement. Old nakago don't look like this. BTW the kinzogan-mei is quite new and the habaki looks brand-new to me and not even of Japanese origin from a distance." reinhard, if you were to see the sword I think you might have a different opinion...I am not sure how many swords you've seen, but I will assure you that it is an original nakago and the blade is exceptional...The mounts are certainly rare and the habaki was likely new to the blade when last polished before WWII, but if you get closer to your screen you will see that it is indeed Japanese. Ed

Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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got some money coming soon, let me know, or id love to have it on my table if or when the Twin cities show happens....at a outrageous price....LOL with small % fee to me ). Dont mind the resident cynic, hes required to keep balance for the sane members.

reinhard Proficient

reinhard

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Scroll down to see oshigata/habaki > http://www.sho-shin.com/sai4.htm , it's possible someone tried to replicate :?: :dunno:

 

Franco, this is, of course, exactly where this blade is pointing to. Being one of the five Tenka Go Ken, "O-Tenta" is one of Japan's most famous swords. Even less educated sword-lovers (and most fakers) heard of this sword. It is published in almost every beginner's book about NihonTo. - Now, and all of a sudden, its "twin brother" pops up out of nowhere... and even with a similar habaki! - It's like an acryl-painting of the Mona Lisa within an old-style frame from Ikea appearing just like that and some people are wondering: "Could this be the real thing?"

 

It's not the amount of mekugi-ana that matters. It is their quality and their placement. On this particular example the intervals are too regular all over the nakago. Somebody tried to fulfill certain expectations without knowing much about the history of shortening blades. He succeded to some extent as it seems.

 

reinhard

george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

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reinhard I am not sure how many swords you've seen,

 

Wrong question.

 

reinhard[/quote

 

Wrong answer Reinhard..."I am not sure how many swords you've seen"...is not a question.

 

If you read Ed Hick's post you will see that he just wanted to show us his blade...he mentions all the things you criticise: The similarity to classic Mitsuyo, the habaki/O-Tenta connection, the kinzogan mei, the holes in the tang and the fact that the habaki is new (20th Century). He does not make any claims about this sword or these features being anything... sho-shin, kokuho etc etc,... just that it is a spectacular item and in rare fittings. After your comments he says that if you could see it up close, he is sure you would appreciate its quality and that the habaki is Japanese.

 

If you want to kantei the blade Reinhard, why don't you just do that?

 

George.

PS. Nice to see you trawling the "Military Swords" page. There is a question here on page 5 of the "Arsenal Stamps" thread about the awarding of Hozon (NBTHK) and Kanteisho (NTHK) origami to WWII gendaito if you'd care to comment?

Ed Hicks Community Regular

Ed Hicks

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George, Well said and neatly phrased, thanks, you have precisely described my posting...This is so much fun I'll post a Go Yoshihiro tanto soon. Ed

Brian

Brian

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Take it easy folks..I think we have had enough of squabbling lately.

It is vital for the sake of education that we learn what to beware of when looking at blades, and the pitfalls. We should be learning the warning signs that indicate this isn't all it claims to be.

That said, it is just as vital to explain these points. It is no use at all to criticise and then teach nothing at all. This would make an excellent excercise in judging a nakago, if someone was to care to actually write an article.

Criticising without explanation is as counter productive as criticising the criticism while ignoring it. Gettit? I hope so.

Not to say this isn't a lovely blade, but we have to learn to get past the oooh and aaah'ing and if the facts are not pretty, that is the way it goes.

Otherwise how are we going to teach people how to look at swords and consider buying them?

 

Brian

reinhard Proficient

reinhard

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reinhard I am not sure how many swords you've seen,

 

Wrong question.

 

Wrong answer Reinhard..."I am not sure how many swords you've seen"...is not a question.

 

Implicitly it is. Nevermind, it's not the number that counts, but that's another thread.

 

If you read Ed Hick's post you will see that he mentions all the things you criticise

 

Mr.Hicks comments started like this: "It's textbook Mitsuyo (very interesting habaki similar mon as on O-Tenta)". Remember? Then there was a group-hug and many congratulations.

 

First of all I congratulate Mr.Hicks on being one of the very few experts on Miike MITSUYO. He must have seen most of them in hand in order to call this blade a "textbook Mitsuyo".

As for the habaki:

"O-Tenta" was given to Maeda Toshiie by Toyotomi Hideyoshi and became one of the most treasured possessions of the Maeda family and still is. That's where the mon comes from! The present mountings of O-Tenta were made on the orders of Hon'ami Koho during the time of Maeda Toshitsune (1593-1658). - There is, of course, a very small, almost non-existent possibility the Maeda family possessed another MITSUYO blade, kept it in secret and told nobody about it.

 

reinhard

Ed Hicks Community Regular

Ed Hicks

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reinhard, My assumption is that the habaki (which is indeed Japanese by the way) is either a family mon (most likely) or a nod to the Mitsuyo O Denta habaki (maybe, but less likely)...As for the textbook remark I made, that is an opinion based on my observation of this sword in hand having compared it to references at hand (none of which included an actual Mitsyo blade)...From my meager research it appears to be a later example in the school (if I am correct) and the kinzogan attribution may be correct or not...Being a very young novice and having little experience with swords I may have missed something, but I make no claim to this sword being other than what it is-a very intriguing and fine quality koto sword in very rare mounts...Once I take better photos I will post it in the proper forum for discussion. Ed

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reinhard Proficient

reinhard

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There's something I've never really understood: Why is Nakadai starting to bleed while Mifune's sword is still hanging in the air? Akira Kurosawa was very eager for making action look realistic. Thank god SFX improved in the meantime.

 

reinhard

Mark Veteran

Mark

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re: movie clip....... i think they are trying to show that he cut a slash through the side on the draw and ended with the sword at the back.

george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

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Hi Reinhard,

I saw what you wrote about Ed Hicks and his "textbook" Mitsuyo statement etc...If I may comment again (with respect), I point out that for 99.999% of members who only get to see Mitsuyo in "textbooks", this one does indeed conform to those textbooks. While you discussed the "un-Japanese" habaki, you only explained the mon, not the origin of the habaki. The other points about Mr Hicks' posting you are silent on.

While at least we got a little bit of information as to the O-Tenta Mitsuyo , you are still far from informative on this sword...as Brian says, there is no teaching in criticism without explanation. Please don't think I am criticising criticism without wishing people to learn from it...I do indeed wish to learn from your knowledge...I invite you to assess the Mitsuyo blade in a way that addresses all your previous criticisms (nakago, mei, mekugiana, habaki...and quality?) but this time with explanations.

I also invite you to address the question raised on page 5 of the "Arsenal Stamps" on "Military Swords", about the Hozon and Kanteisho papers awarded to to WWII gendaito.

I and a number of members are genuinely interested to hear your views on all these subjects, but as a teacher, not a critic.

Regards,

George.

reinhard Proficient

reinhard

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I point out that for 99.999% of members who only get to see Mitsuyo in "textbooks", this one does indeed conform to those textbooks.

 

That's why "99.999% of the members" better shut up when it comes to big name blades.

 

reinhard

reinhard Proficient

reinhard

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That's a bit harsh

 

What did you expect? Appreciation of NihonTo is a harsh way to go. It was never meant to be a cozy place for everybody.

 

reinhard

estcrh Veteran

estcrh

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I point out that for 99.999% of members who only get to see Mitsuyo in "textbooks", this one does indeed conform to those textbooks.

 

That's why "99.999% of the members" better shut up when it comes to big name blades.

 

reinhard

 

So who are the 00.001% of the members that in your opinion are able to talk about big name blades....so we do not waste our time listening to the other 99.999%? I am serious..I would guess you and Guido..who else?

george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

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I point out that for 99.999% of members who only get to see Mitsuyo in "textbooks", this one does indeed conform to those textbooks.

 

That's why "99.999% of the members" better shut up when it comes to big name blades.

 

reinhard

 

With respect...I think you have missed the point of the above comments . 99.999% of members do not "speak" on big name blades, but stumble in darkness and speculation, which brings down the contempt and wrath of the "Naijin"...for a long time now members have actually been asking you to "speak" on this subject (and many other subjects not so "great" like your views on the papering of what some call wartime "crap"), as we want to learn from you. Perhaps you will save us the bother of these endless futile questions by just telling us:

will you teach?...or not?

 

George.

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