Papers

[satim19454]

Whats the best/easiest way for me to get papers on my new katana?

[cabowen]

There are several options. You can send it through an agent to Japan or you could send it through an agent to the US when there is a shinsa stateside. You might also consider posting pictures of it here where experienced people can give you an opinion for free....

[Jean]

Timothy,

 

Please, sign your post with your first name as per NMB rules

[Toryu2020]

Is it Tim?

If you are anywhere near San Francisco this month there is a shinsa being held at the NCJSC To-Ken Taikai, the largest Japanese Sword Show and sale outside of Japan.

 

visit the following for info on the shinsa;

 

http://www.toryu-mon.com/Toryu-Mon/NTHK ... ement.html

 

a real alternative to sending swords to Japan, and visit the NCJSC for info on the sword show;

 

http://www.ncjsc.org

 

best,

-t

[cisco-san]

Is there a possibility to get papers here in Europe as well?

Since there is a branch of NBTHK in Europe, do they offer this "service"?

 

Many thanks

[Takahashi]

Is there a possibility to get papers here in Europe as well?

 

If there is currently no such service in Europe, I think NBTHK-Europe should definitely think about introducing such shinsa events in Europe. There has to be a high demand for european collectors as it is always expensive to send swords aound the world and it bears the danger of transport damage.

 

Cheers,

[reinhard]

NBTHK and NTHK are confused here. Neither European branch nor American branch of NBTHK are offering shinsa. The two sections consist of members only. We are neither qualified nor authorized to hand out papers. Papers are handed out only by the headquarter in Japan for good reasons.

NTHK on the other hand is sending people abroad for expertise.

 

reinhard

[cisco-san]

We are neither qualified nor authorized to hand out papers. Papers are handed out only by the headquarter in Japan for good reasons.

reinhard

 

Dear Reinhard,

I fully understand, but there could be a service that every few years qualified and authorized people will come to the European or American branch. Even if the Shinsa fee are more expensive as in Japan --> therefore no shipping costs .... are necessary?!

Of course if there are just a sword blades to be papered it would make no sense that the Shinsa team will come, but if e.g. every five years such Shinsa will happen, I think there will be lot of blades.

[stephan_hiller]

Hi,

 

I would be highly interested in a Shinsa in Europe as I don't like to send my swords out of Europe. You have to deal with quite a lot of paperwork when re-importing swords into Germany (after the Shinsa). It is not so much about the costs but rather the hazzle around it.

 

Stephan

[Ted Tenold]

Not trying to be too glib about the subject, but many times the easiest way to obtain papers is to just buy papered swords. Otherwise, the process is what it is, and requires a measure of time, money, patience, inconvenience, and sometimes disappointment. Welcome to the world of Nihonto. It's not a "convenient" environment.

[Icepic]

Thank You Mr Tenold, That was every sound advise; especially for those folks who live in a place where shinsya's are not held. Also, after reading Nobuo Nakahara's new book, may I add to buying already papered blades; To buy blades that have

Ubu Nakagos and has a Mei.

[paulb]

with no desire to reopen the discussion regarding the new book. If you limit yourself to ubu swords with a mei you are missing out on a great deal. Without doubt if you ask many of the longer term collectors on the board which are their best and most cherished blades nearly all will show you Mumei, suriage koto blades.

Do not read Mr. Nakahara's book in isolation, look at the many other sources avaialble and having compared their opinions with his make a judgement.

regards

paul

[Jamie]

There is some talk that there might be a shinsa again next year.

You might post pictures, there are many educated members that may give you lots of useful info on the Blade, and mei.

[Icepic]

Hello Paul, Nice to hear from you. I enjoy your post and agree with you almost always; However I do not understand what a person would be missing out on by limiting a collection to papered swords that are uba with a mei ? All things being equal between two swords I will choose the sword that is uba with a mei over a suriage/mumei blade every time.

 

P.S. I was not trying to reopen a post on Mr. Nakahara's new book, but I will admit that I was SO MUCH looking forward to reading what NMB members thought about it. Maybe later uh ?

[Jean]

All things being equal between two swords I will choose the sword that is uba with a mei over a suriage/mumei blade every time

 

Everything could be equal but no the price

[paulb]

As you say " All things being equal" is the key and if two blades by the same smith made to the same quaity but one signed and the other not, I would go for the ubu signed blade every time.

My point was/is that if you start out with a view that "I am only going to collect ubu signed swords" you remove a vast range of very high quality blades from your potential collection. Just take a look at some of the sales catalogues of the important collections such as Compton, the Japanese sword museum etc. They are absolutely full of O-suriage mumei blades whose quality outshines much of the later signed works.

Regardless of Mr. Nakahara's theories there are a large number of very high quality mumei Koto blades in existence that are recognised by every sword association as being the work of particular, important smiths. A classic example is the Rai Kunitoshi piece in the aforemetioned fittings museum sale which is designated as a National treasure (by the government not a sword association) and sold for 180,000 UK pounds.

I think it comes back to the much repeated lines, "first look at the sword". Do this without any pre-conception or any pre-planned restrictions.

If you like what you see then decide whether you can live with it as an unsigned work. But do not dismiss blades just because they are unsigned.

For a long time I focussed almost exclusively on Hizen swords, while I enjoyed it at the time I later realised that there were many other works I was missing out on by being too single minded. Now (I hope) I take a broader view.

Of my own collection 75% consists of suriage mumei pieces. If I had to reduce the collection to one or two blades the ones I would keep would be from this group.

Regards

paul

[Tcat]

I have a question about papers, I hope it is not too far off topic to be answered...

 

Baring in mind that sending a sword to shinsa is not exactly cheap and that certification papers can mean a great deal in judging the market value of a sword, what I would like to know is what sort of compensation (if any) is offered by the NBTHK / NTHK in the event of a sword recieving two different sets of papers (from the same organisation) which causes either an increase/decrease in percieved market value of a sword?

There may be numerous costs to consider: insurace, market inflation/deflation, choice of level of polish etc... Does anyone know of any law suits which have taken place in Japan / USA involving this kind of dispute?

[paulb]

Hi Alex,

I can only offer an opinion as much of my understanding is based on aging stories, perhaps others closer to the various papering organisations can confirm or otherwise the validity of this view.

Certainly in the past (1970s and 80s) there was a major problem with the NBTHK regarding papers which were either inaccurate of falsified. This resulted in re-organisation and a restructuring of the papering system. There have also been some high profile accusations in the more recent past related to members of the NTHK prior to the formation of the two seperate bodies. Whether any of these accusations resulted in legal action I do not know but certainly they did cause damage to the relevent orgainisations.

Part of the problem is in the wording of the paper. In Inami Kakasui's book he describes his papers and quotes the line which " Guarantee" the swords authentcity. This 100% commitment also appeared on NTHK papers in the past (not sure if it still does or has been modified)

Making such a black and white statement on something which cannot be proven may be regarded as foolhardy and asking for trouble. I sometimes wonder if because of this shinsa panels take a very conservative approach so they cant be later accused of over stating a swords importance.

I think the current view is that papers are based on opinion which may change in light of continued research. certainly at one point the NBTHK were recommending re-submitting fittings on a regular basis as ongoing research could result in views changing.

I would therefore think it highly unlikely that one could go to litigation if a sword or fitting papered to a different school/maker if it was resubmitted.

As said above papers are based on opinion, albeit very highly qualitfied opinion. Unless one could prove negligence or corruption and deliberate attempt to deceive I think it would be very difficult to win a legal case, but I am not a lawyer so those who are may have a very different view.

Ultimately while not perfect the papering systems offered by the NBTHK, NTHK, NTHK-NPO while not perfect offer the best option we have to gain a more qualified opinion than we might otherwise have. Whether one chooses to avail oneself of this opportunity is a matter of personal choice as is the decision as to whether you accept their views.

hope this helps

regards

Paul

[nagamaki - Franco]

At the risk of repetitiveness , the ground work for collecting signed and unsigned swords has already pretty much been laid out for the collector, including noted exceptions. > http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html

Another point to keep in mind in addition to Jean's and Paul's comments is the fact that competition for finding good signed swords is incredibly intense. One reason is that for many collectors, and a few dealers as well, it's a hell of a lot easier to learn to read the mei than it is to kantei the sword!

[Eric H]

without comment

 

Eric

[Eric H]

Just take a look at some of the sales catalogues of the important collections such as Compton, the Japanese sword museum etc. They are absolutely full of O-suriage mumei blades whose quality outshines much of the later signed works.

Referring to the Christie‘s auctions IMPORTANT SWORDS FROM THE MUSEUM OF Japanese SWORD FITTINGS:

 

The registration committee in those early days was chaired by the late Dr Junji Homma, and consisted of recognised sword specialists. Interestingly, those early registration documents often have handwritten attributions and notes relating to the provenance of the swords, and are therefore important records in their own right. These were early days before the kanteisho system was fully established.

 

when it comes to the mumei swords of the COMPTON COLLECTION they are papered.

 

Without doubt if you ask many of the longer term collectors on the board which are their best and most cherished blades nearly all will show you Mumei, suriage koto blades.

This might be true, but I believe they don't disclaim to an authentication paper when it is an important sword, isn't it?

 

Eric

[cabowen]

without comment

 

Eric

 

Perhaps some clarification is in order...

 

The NBTHK has had several of their people in hot water in recent years for various alleged offenses. These scandals have been all over the Japanese press. There have been many lawsuits.

 

The Ministry of Education has cut off funding and the Japan Swordsmiths Association, along with many other major figures, has aligned themselves with a new sword group. It is possible that this new group will issue kantei sho in the future, though at present they are not doing so...

[paulb]

Eric wrote:

This might be true, but I believe they don't disclaim to an authentication paper when it is an important sword, isn't it?

 

Eric

 

Sorry Eric I dont understand the point you are making?

 

With regard to your comments about the fittings museum sale you are absolutely right, I am sorry I was getting my sales confused, the one I was thinking of was the Manno Art Museum. Also the Rai sword I mentioned was in fact signed (not sure whether it is early morning or just age that is upsetting my memory) However within that sale there are a number of examples of mumei suriage blades attributed to Yukimitsu, Norishige and Taima and ranging in papers from Juyo to Tokubetsu Juyo all of which commanded strong prices. So I think the comments of the earlier mail hold true.

Best Regards

paul

[Eric H]

Paul,

it wasn‘t my intention to criticize or to revise your remarks referring to both auctions...my aim was to reveal the fact that before NBTHK was established, no papers existed in the form as nowadays, whereas the Compton mumei swords then became Origami.

Sorry Eric I dont understand the point you are making?

Due to the fact that few people outside of Japan are experts to point down a good mumei blade... of course in perfect condition...exactly to period, school, smith, therefore it is for the benefit of the average collector to have an attribution of mumei blades issued by NBTHK, NTHK etc.

On the other hand, a mumei sword without Origami is a splendid object for speculations by its owner and other „experts“...a doubtful perspective.

 

Kantei is easy... ... an article by John Kurrasch, but it‘s a field full of perils.

 

Chris Bowden f.e. has participated in numerous Kantei...his judgements are well respected... and this is the only way to get deeper knowledge on swords, they must be hold in hands and thoroughly inspected. Sword organizations offer the same opportunity.

 

Eric

[paulb]

Hi Eric,

thank you for the clarification, I agree totally. I confess that on many occassions in the past I have greatly enjoyed the speculation about a mumei blade that has come in to my possession for a short period. regrettably on nearly all of those occassions the fantasy was just that!

regards

paul