Impressions of "Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords"

[paulb]

Morning Clive,

I have heard this argument/suggestion before (maybe from you ) I think it surfaced recently with the formation of the new government body in Japan (sorry I have forgotten their name) who in their original plans were intending to offer a single type of paper which commented only on authenticity and not on relative quality. Again only from third hand comment as I wasnt party to any of the original discussion my understanding was that this proved less than popular especially and not surprisingly amongst the major dealers.

Whether we choose to accept it or not this subject is commercially driven as is every other field in the antiques world. There will be those who devote their lives to the study, those who love the subject but for whatever reason cannot devote the time necessary and thus rely on the help of the afore mentioned experts. There will of course those who are only in it to make money, but they equally have their part to play in keeping the market healthy. Fine art if it isnt financially valued suffers and declines. It is the commercial value (in the main) that makes people take time and trouble to restore and maintain.

The opening of the market as a result of internet sales has made papering more significant. While it is open to possble abuse and is imperfect I still beleive it offers buyers the ability to buy with greater confidence than they would otherwise. I confess that I would have been reluctant to buy some of my blades, even though I was buying from dealers I have total faith in, had they not been through this process. This has nothing to do with my ability or lack of ability to recognise quality it is a simple commercial point of view in that I beleive should I need to sell them on a papered piece is generally easier to sell. I also think that the various grades of paper contribute to that process positively.

Best Regards

Paul

[Jean]

This has nothing to do with my ability or lack of ability to recognise quality it is a simple commercial point of view in that I beleive should I need to sell them on a papered piece is generally easier to sell.

 

I have got afriend who is a dealer (not in dope ) in Japanese artefacts (Blades, kodogu, kimonos ...). He told me a month ago that it was almost impossible for him to sell a sword nowadays, if it was not papered.

[cabowen]

Chris

Isn't it a pleasant irony that you argue against the gaining of papers at shinsa (or more, the reliance of papers from shinsa I suppose) when you represent the NTHK-NPO that issues such pearls of wisdom!

Clive Sinclaire

 

 

I wondered how long it would take before someone brought this up.....longer than I thought....

 

Yes, I am a director of an organization that issues kantei-sho. They also publish a journal aimed at educating people which includes a kantei section to help with identification.

 

As I said, kantei-sho do serve a purpose in some instances but the thrust of my comments has been that they are used as a replacement for knowledge by many; this lack of study and education is not something I nor the NTHK-NPO endorse.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Paul

Call me old fashioned (quite justifiably) but I have never bought a sword that I have not held in my hands and closely scrutinised and even then, of course, I have made mistakes. Whilst I know it is now common for deals to be struck on the internet and that papers help justifiy prices and authenticity, I am afraid it is impossible for me to buy in this manner any more than I would marry a woman who I had never met except for some pics on a wensite, even if she was classed as Juyo Token and let's be honest chaps, buying a sword is far more important than getting a wife for goodness sake! I still feel that the papers should only be of Hozon level and I have no problem that this would be a disadvantage for dealers. (The new group you were thinking of is the NBSK - Nihion Bunka Shinko Kyokai)

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

PS: Chris, couldn't resist pointing out the little irony - sorry old boy

[nagamaki - Franco]

As I said, kantei-sho do serve a purpose in some instances but the thrust of my comments has been that they are used as a replacement for knowledge by many; this lack of study and education is not something I nor the NTHK-NPO endorse.

 

Agree, adding that whenever considering papers the student should always be attempting to look at the sword through the judgment given trying to understand how that conclusion was reached.

 

Further food for thought. Every now and then multiple swords made by the very same swordsmith will appear for sale. These swords will all be polished, signed, have the same level of paper, and be similarly priced. However, when studying these swords carefully the collector may find that one of the swords in particular will standout in workmanship, that is, if they're able to recognize both the obvious and often more important subtle differences. It may also be the case that this student collector having at some point in time studied an outstanding example by this particular swordsmith determines when looking at the swords for sale that none of the swords being offered quite match up in overall quality to this smith's best/better work. Which is what is being sought. Certainly the subject of a swordsmith producing mulitple swords for a customer's order where the customer chooses the best sword which is then signed has been discussed here before. Well, now you're the customer and papers will not tell you which of the swords you should purchase or which sword you would be better off not purchasing. And keep in mind that the higher the level the paper the more critical it becomes that the collector doesn't screw up in their decision. On the subject of sword polish and papers. Papers will not necessarily tell a collector how good the polish is on a particular sword. Time and again there have been instances in which newly polished papered swords have been repolished by the new owner where the sword then passes to a significantly better school/swordsmith, sometimes even becoming a Juto. Somebody did their studying and somebody sold a sword because they were convinced it was what the paper had said it was.

[cabowen]

Paul

Call me old fashioned (quite justifiably) but I have never bought a sword that I have not held in my hands and closely scrutinised and even then, of course, I have made mistakes. Whilst I know it is now common for deals to be struck on the internet and that papers help justifiy prices and authenticity, I am afraid it is impossible for me to buy in this manner any more than I would marry a woman who I had never met except for some pics on a wensite, even if she was classed as Juyo Token and let's be honest chaps, buying a sword is far more important than getting a wife for goodness sake! I still feel that the papers should only be of Hozon level and I have no problem that this would be a disadvantage for dealers. (The new group you were thinking of is the NBSK - Nihion Bunka Shinko Kyokai)

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

PS: Chris, couldn't resist pointing out the little irony - sorry old boy

 

 

Firstly, if it was to be pointed out, I am glad it was you that did the pointing...

 

As far as buying swords sight unseen, it is the most dangerous of all sword play. I will admit to having done it many times, but only when dealing with swords by makers I am very familiar with, having seen enough of their work to know that it was a safe bet, though a bet nonetheless. I recall the first such time I actually cheated a bit, knowing that Mishina san had polished the blade when in England, and called him for his opinion. On his advice and my knowledge of the smith, I wired the greatest sum of money I had yet to pay for a sword to someone I had never met for a sword I had never seen. My mail order bride and I are still as happy together today as we were when we first met at the toroku shinsa some 15 years ago.....

[paulb]

Chris,

I likewise have bought my most expensive blades unseen. I did buy them from very highly regarded dealers who I knew by reputation but not personally. Whereas you consulted with Kenji Mishina I relied on the NBTHK papering system, so in reality our approach to buying at distance is not greatly different, we sought others opinions to support our own.

There is always the chance that when buying this way the reality does not live up to the image, or simply once you have it in hand you dont like it. However buying in this way while carrying risks greatly increases the pieces available to the would be buyer.

Clive,

I am also proudly old fashioned (or so my colleagues continue to tell me) but in reality I could not have bought the swords I wanted in the UK nor could I fly halfway round the world at short notice to see them so I had to give in to the use of technology. (the returns policies of both dealers concerned helped that decision process considerably)

Look forward to meeting you again in the near futre and we can discuss the merits of internet buying over a beer!

[reinhard]

Even those by oft faked smiths can in many cases be verified by people with years of experience without needing a shinsa.

 

"Years of experience" of what? Of handling second and third grade swords?

[cabowen]

Even those by oft faked smiths can in many cases be verified by people with years of experience without needing a shinsa.

 

"Years of experience" of what? Of handling second and third grade swords?

 

I surmise you have never spent any time in Japan attending monthly kantei meetings were one can study blades routinely by the top smiths from all periods....

[reinhard]

Relax. All i'm saying is: "Years of experience" is a very stretchy term. I've come across quite a few people claiming to have "years of experience". Digging deeper, it turned out many of them had never gained a higher level of knowledge nor had they ever held works from top-class smiths in their hands but had dealt with dozens or hundreds of bad blades. Those who did acquire a higher level of knowledge are usually aware of their still limited abilities. What Tanobe-san has to say about shoshin and gimei f.e. is representing a level of expertise most people will never reach. Kantei in Japan on a regular basis or not.

 

You see, it's nothing personal for I don't know you and you don't know me either. BTW your surmise is not quite right. I'm spending time in Japan every year and am lucky to study (not only kantei) swords most people never have the opportunity to lay hands on. Some of them can be found in Nippon To Taikan.

 

regards

 

reinhard

[cabowen]

Relax. All i'm saying is: "Years of experience" is a very stretchy term. I've come across quite a few people claiming to have "years of experience". Digging deeper, it turned out many of them had never gained a higher level of knowledge nor had they ever held works from top-class smiths in their hands but had dealt with dozens or hundreds of bad blades. Those who did acquire a higher level of knowledge are usually aware of their still limited abilities. What Tanobe-san has to say about shoshin and gimei f.e. is representing a level of expertise most people will never reach. Kantei in Japan on a regular basis or not.

 

True enough. That about covers most of those in the US.

 

Tanobe san is a professional and surely there are few at his level of knowledge. That doesn't mean that there are not people who have spent their lives attending kantei 3 or 4 times a month for 40 or more years who are more than capable of correct judgements in most cases....I know personally several such people. Many togi-shi are also at this level.

 

You see, it's nothing personal for I don't know you and you don't know me either. BTW your surmise is not quite right. I'm spending time in Japan every year and am lucky to study (not only kantei) swords most people never have the opportunity to lay hands on. Some of them can be found in Nippon To Taikan.

 

regards

 

reinhard

 

You are fortunate to have that opportunity. Surely you have met people there then that have the experience of which I speak....

[george trotter]

Relax. All i'm saying is: "Years of experience" is a very stretchy term. I've come across quite a few people claiming to have "years of experience". Digging deeper, it turned out many of them had never gained a higher level of knowledge nor had they ever held works from top-class smiths in their hands but had dealt with dozens or hundreds of bad blades. Those who did acquire a higher level of knowledge are usually aware of their still limited abilities. What Tanobe-san has to say about shoshin and gimei f.e. is representing a level of expertise most people will never reach. Kantei in Japan on a regular basis or not.

 

You see, it's nothing personal for I don't know you and you don't know me either. BTW your surmise is not quite right. I'm spending time in Japan every year and am lucky to study (not only kantei) swords most people never have the opportunity to lay hands on. Some of them can be found in Nippon To Taikan.

 

regards

 

reinhard

 

I have stayed out of this discussion and the one on the values expressed in "art or artifact" for the simple reason that I am tired of some members' comments and the way they are made and intended.

Almost all members in these threads are expressing opinions and they make this clear...also they are clear that they intend no offense. The outcome is learning and sharing for all.

OTOH...there are those who criticise and dismiss these opinions, which is OK in normal discussion, but these dismissals are usually without adding an explanation for their criticism or giving examples from their experience...or in some cases without even identifying themselves.

In the above case, for the first time (for me anyway), Chris Bowen has managed to extract a little background information about one of these more controversial and mysterious members. In order to make the board/discussion more edifying, may I respectfully request that this member tell us why he has this right of criticism without explanation or identity.

Will he tell us who he is, what he stands for (rather than just what he is against...) and, equally important, tell us what his credentials are...

 

Perhaps he could allow us a little "digging deeper" into his "years of experience" by perhaps telling us the titles of some of the Nihonto books he has authored...(I don't even know his names, so can't check the libraries for his work)...so...how about it?.

Forgive my impudence....but I know a lot of members just want to know "who is this guy?'''

 

Regards,

George.

[Stephen]

Forgive my impudence....but I know a lot of members just want to know "who is this guy?'''

 

[Guido]

Let me tell you a little secret: my secretary loves cats. She also is very keen of horseback riding, and is madly in love with Russel Crowe. She’s in her late forties and unmarried. Anyhow, cats are her whole live. A couple of years ago she wrote a book about how she adopted a stray cat and her litter in Outer Mongolia. A heartbreaking story, really. The book was published and sold 38 copies. She bought another 200 copies herself and hands them out to everyone who shows the slightest interest in the story. She’s a published author. Wow!

 

Let me tell you another secret, this time an open secret: above a certain level of Nihontō appreciation the air gets pretty thin. There are a maybe a hundred or so serious students who can live in that hostile environment, and – surprise, surprise! – they know each other. There’s no real need to introduce one self, just reading the name tells you the story. It’s somehow like Japanese society: Naijin and Gaijin. When it comes to Naijin, they usually appear like elitist, cryptic, pompous pricks to the Gaijin who never will get beyond the “invisible wall” (as a good friend of mine always puts it).

 

Naijin recognize Nihontô as an art form, and usually invest a substantial amount of time and money into studying their field of interest. They enjoy reading books on the subject, visiting museums and dealers, go to Japan to study first-hand the finest specimens available, discussing different aspects with craftsmen and fellow collectors, and generally aspire to learn as much as possible about the subject, often sacrificing other desires to achieve their goal.

 

The Gaijin don’t realize that their inability to follow the comments of the Naijin is a result of their own ignorance. This ignorance is more often than not the unwillingness to spend quality time to study the subject as it deserves. They concentrate on well documented Guntō that show no artistic merit whatsoever, just because they are affordable and readily available. They collect militaria, not art. They never will become Naijin if they continue treading water.

 

Reinhard certainly doesn’t need me to speak up for him. The Naijn know him and his credentials and what he stands for.

[george trotter]

Reinhard certainly doesn’t need me to speak up for him. The Naijn know him and his credentials and what he stands for.

 

Any chance you could get Reinhard to speak for himself?

 

By the way Guido, those were nteresting little stories, thanks (is Guido a gaijin name?). Perhaps you would like to share your credentials and achievements with us as well?

 

Regards,

George.

[cabowen]

 

The Gaijin don’t realize that their inability to follow the comments of the Naijin is a result of their own ignorance. This ignorance is more often than not the unwillingness to spend quality time to study the subject as it deserves. They concentrate on well documented Guntō that show no artistic merit whatsoever, just because they are affordable and readily available. They collect militaria, not art. They never will become Naijin if they continue treading water.

 

Reinhard certainly doesn’t need me to speak up for him. The Naijn know him and his credentials and what he stands for.

 

I wouldn't call the inability of readers here to understand Reinhard's comments the result of their own ignorance but rather the short, snarky, sarcastic, superior and semi-cryptic nature of many of them. Usually people have the courtesy and good manners to simply stay out of a discussion if they have nothing of substance to add, or, if it is beneath their intellectual level. It takes as much time and effort to write something helpful as it does something derisive. Since most people I have encountered here seem generally interested in learning, I see no reason for the hit and run posts that add nothing positive to the discussion. How much more useful to all it would be if he would use his advanced knowledge and Naijin expertise to educate instead of agitate.

[Brian]

Well..that went downhill...umm..err...slowly.

I've had enough of this one personally. So I think I will be selfish and spare myself the grief and lock this one.

Guido and Reinhard are among the few top Western students of Nihonto, and are well known within Japan and outside. I don't say that to justify anything at all..merely that asking for credentials in this case is irrellevant and pointless. That doesn't really need to be debated, and I think enough criticism and points have been made to ensure that follow up posts are not necessary. Good points made on both sides, although neither will pay any heed I am sure.

 

Brian