Mon Help.

[MikeS]

G'day All.

Does any one know of this mon (or is it kamon?)? It is on a koshirae of a Shinshinto tanto by Kurume Suketoshi of the Yokoyama Sukenaga mon. I am not sure what to call it to do a search but it could be 3 layers of paper. I have seen 3 squares of differing sizes but not the same size as I have. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Mike Smith.

Sydney Australia.

[Bugyotsuji]

Is this a version of まるに三階菱　"Maru ni Sankai bishi"?　Three-storied diamond. See line 6 here on the right

http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/kika/hishi.htm

[Nobody]

Is this a version of まるに三階菱　"Maru ni Sankai bishi"?　Three-storied diamond. See line 6 here on the right

http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/kika/hishi.htm

A mon in line 11 there looks more like the mon in question.

丸に重ね三階菱 - “Maru ni kasane sankai bishi”

[Bugyotsuji]

Nobody! You are always one step ahead. When will I be able to catch up with you???

[MikeS]

Thanks for the help. I have seen that mon before and it seems to be fairly well know compared with the mon in question with the squares (or diamonds or paper) the same size. I was hoping that maybe it was not as common and therefore would be easier to narrow down a family. What does the Bishi mean in "Maru ni kasane sankai bishi" ( my translation is a "pile or stack of three ? in a circle").

Thanks.

Mike Smith

Sydney Australia.

[Guido]

菱 (hishi) means water caltrop or rhombus.

 

It's extremely difficult to trace a Kamon back to a certain family, or even individual, without supporting evidence. Kamon were not copyrighted, and basically could be chosen and changed freely.

 

But if you wait a little longer one of the usual suspects will post a page from the Hawley Kamon book and tell you *exactly* which family it belonged to . If you're into romantic "interpretations" and not too fond of historic research you should take Hawley at face value as do many others.

[MikeS]

Thanks Guido. I have looked in Hawleys and I know it is not always reliable but he does have some useful information. Anyway, I don't think it is in there. I thought that because it is an uncommon kamon it might be easier to trace. The tanto is dated Meiji 4 and I would assume that it is the only koshirae that it has had and thus the kamon is probably from the same time period as the tanto. Are there records of kamon? Were they of low importance that they "were not copyrighted, and basically could be chosen and changed freely." Again thanks for the help

Mike Smith

[cabowen]

They meant less and less and as time went on and by Meiji time had certainly went on.....

[Guido]

Are there records of kamon?

There are, but as you can see from the atttached example of a Kamon list of the late Edo period, even previously highly respected Kamon of ancient family lines were by then more or less freely used.

[Stephen]

guess im the usual suspect that Gman aludes too, sorry if if just show what i found, so be it if that makes me baka!!!

[george trotter]

Hi Stephen,

There's nothing baka about it...it's nice of you to go to the trouble of posting from Hawleys book. Who knows...maybe one of the families named there is the right one for the mon. While only research will tell (maybe), Hawley is still a reasonable compendium of Mon-Family associations...a reasonable place to start.

I don't think you need to apologise for constructive responses to members' questions...these are always nicer to read than put-downs.

Regards,

George.

[Guido]

[Brian]

 

Well..I for one appreciate the scans. Accurate or not, they are better than no info at all. The fact that they might not lead back to the direct family...well that is accepted. Don't stop posting them though.

 

Brian

[MikeS]

Thanks for the help. I understand it was a long shot but being a variation on a popular kamon I thought it may have less families using it and be "easier" to trace. Have attached some images of the tsuka with a what I assume to be a sun and moon theme. There seems to be quite a few tanto with early Meiji dates. Was this the roll of the dice for swordsmiths or was there a demand for tanto during this period?

Thanks

Mike Smith

Sydney Australia

[cabowen]

There seems to be quite a few tanto with early Meiji dates. Was this the roll of the dice for swordsmiths or was there a demand for tanto during this period?

Thanks

Mike Smith

Sydney Australia

 

With the Haito rei edict outlawing the wearing of swords in public, the demand for new swords went straight into the toilet. There was still a market, albeit a small one, for tanto as they were used for ceremony so that is the majority of what we see from the Meiji, Taisho, and early Showa periods....

[Bugyotsuji]

There is also the custom of placing a Mamori-gatana tanto on the breast of the dead, so this must have been another 'hidden' market.

 

A very good looking Tsuka, though!