Ishihara Kanenao with star stamp?!

[cisco-san]

Dear all,

 

does somebody know if any star stamped blade from Seki sword smith "Ishihara Kanenao" exists?

 

Many thanks

[SwordGuyJoe]

No - Kanenao was not a Rikugun Jumei Tosho (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/gendai2.htm)

[cisco-san]

No - Kanenao was not a Rikugun Jumei Tosho (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/gendai2.htm)

 

Dear Joe,

 

many thanks for information.

You might be right, because all Kanenao signatures on R. Stein HP do not fit with this one I found - Now I am confused

[Mark]

could yours be Kanemichi?

[mdiddy]

I think it is signed Kanemichi. Here is a page from Sloughs reference noting he was a Rikugun Jumei Tosho. As with many Seki blades, they were not always signed by the smith so that may explain stylistic differences in the mei.

[SwordGuyJoe]

They're right - this is Kanemichi

[huntershooter]

Any photos of the blade Klaus?

[SwordGuyJoe]

Klaus,

In case you weren't aware - if you bought this as a Kanenao piece (and paid a Kanenao price) then you just outdid yourself. Well done and if you do have photos of the blade that would be wonderful.

[cisco-san]

Many thanks for your comments.

I found it on eBay and the auction is still running http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 3D1&_rdc=1 (sorry in this case this is the wrong section) and I am not sure if it is a bargain because the blade is in very very bad condition!! For my it seems it has at least one Hagire :? but I will ask the seller

 

Anyway, above the date I found small stamp - any idea what it could be ??

[SwordGuyJoe]

Very interesting and hopefully Chris will weigh in on this. The stamp appears to be a mis-struck Seki stamp. What makes it interesting is the conflicting stamps. The Star stamp indicates that it would be a gendai blade and the seki stamp would indicate that it is a showato blade. Also as far as the mei is concerned this is a shoshin mei and not kazuuchi (sp), so it was applied by Kanemichi himself (IMHO).

 

Chris or others do you have any insight in the double/conflicting stamps?

 

Edit:

...very, very bad condition...

 

Agreed

[cabowen]

In this case, with the star there, I would say the small seki stamp is simply something that notes the origin, like the na stamp, etc. I would bet it is a traditionally made blade though without seeing it that is simply a hunch....

[huntershooter]

FWIw; I've a Kanehide gendaito, star stamped with tiny Seki stamp on nakago mune.

[george trotter]

I agree that this tiny Seki stamp is not a sign of showato...as Chris says, it is the equivalent of the "na", "saka" stamp etc. and will be on "arsenal forge" made gendaito.

This also does not confuse the previous discussion we had where we stated that generally, no gendai tosho wasted his time making showato marked with "Sho" and Seki" stamps. This Kojima Kanemichi obviously did make "Seki gunto", but was also one of the few from Seki, chosen for the RJT scheme gendaito production. I suppose there will be a handful of RJT smiths who will have "Sho" and "Seki" stamped swords bearing his mei (usually nakirishi mei)....but these will be very few.

Regards,

Geo.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The Star stamp indicates that it would be a gendai blade and the seki stamp would indicate that it is a showato blade

 

The star stamps indicates that the sword is made by a rikugun jumei tosho, nothing else, it could be a gendai or not.

[cisco-san]

Hi,

 

The Star stamp indicates that it would be a gendai blade and the seki stamp would indicate that it is a showato blade

 

The star stamps indicates that the sword is made by a rikugun jumei tosho, nothing else, it could be a gendai or not.

 

Now I am really confused, because I always thought that a star stamp is an indicator that the blade is traditional made --> with tamahagane, water quenched.... made from a rikugun jumei tosho.

Is there another indicator for a gendai, maybe blades without any stamps. For sure each blade has to be examined but I think sometimes it is very hard to see which one is made with tamehagane and which one not ---> therefore star stamp

[pcfarrar]

! For my it seems it has at least one Hagire :? but I will ask the seller

 

I don't think it has any hagire, just looks to be scratches.

[cisco-san]

! For my it seems it has at least one Hagire :? but I will ask the seller

 

I don't think it has any hagire, just looks to be scratches.

 

Yes I think you are right, it seems that there are deep rusted scratches (or is it a ware?!). I am not sure if a polish could correct it.

I asked the seller but he mentioned due to the bad polish he can not see details.

[george trotter]

Jacques wrote...

 

The star stamps indicates that the sword is made by a rikugun jumei tosho, nothing else, it could be a gendai or not.

 

Hi Jacques, very interesting comment. Could you explain a little more fully? Have you seen genuine RJT star stamped blades that are not gendaito?

If you have seen them, could you tell us the makers names?...pics?

If you have not seen them, could you tell us what you are referring to?

 

Regards,

George.

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

The star stamps indicates that the sword is made by a rikugun jumei tosho, nothing else, it could be a gendai or not.

 

The Rikugun Jumei Tosho were required to make gendaito. That was the whole point of the RJT system. The star stamp indicates the blade was inspected by a RJT shinsa'in and met the requirements imposed on the RJT, i.e., it was made traditionally.

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,

I understand the RJT scheme the same way you do...and the official war-time Japanese Government RJT scheme rules/quality proclamations I have translated make it clear that RJT swords must be gendaito or they will not get the star stamp. So you can imagine my surprise at Jacques' forceful conflicting comments about the "meaning" of the star stamp and that star stamped RJT swords "could be gendaito or not" .

It is important that we WWII era gendaito collectors are clear on this matter (IMHO), so I hope Jacques will share his information with us here for discussion.

Regards,

Geo.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

This matter (star stamp) has been already largely discussed. I will follow the opinion described on this book untill someone proves the contrary (i.e. star stamped blade papered by NBTHK).

 

[george trotter]

Hi Jacques,

Thank you for your clarification. I now understand your initial post...you were expressing your opinion based on someone else's opinion...not introducing the results of any new research...that's fine, we just need to know when opinion is posted, so members don't think it is fact.

 

BTW...you mention NBTHK papers but not NTHK papers...may I ask, do you have a problem with NTHK papers?

 

George.

[pcfarrar]

do you have a problem with NTHK papers?

 

The Yoshikawa NTHK failed a few star stamped blades at the UK shinsa a couple of years ago. I'm not sure if anyone actually managed to get a pass on a star stamped blade at that shinsa. One sword they failed had visible nie, sunagashi and looked IMHO to be a true gendaito but they said it was oil tempered. :?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

When a tosho is registered rikugun jumei, he was given a regular allocation of tamahagane that's all, and it is well known RJT used mill steel because tamahagane was too rare in that war times.

 

I would also say that showato or gendai (made during WW2) are not my taste, their workmanship does not show a great artistic level excepted a few ones.

[george trotter]

First pcfarrar san...

I am amazed that the shinsa said a RJT blade was oil tempered...(I have not seen this)...this would be against the RJT rules and it should not have received the star mark. As a matter of interest, I wonder if any members have had a star stamped RJT blade fail shinsa and the reasons given?

 

Jacques wrote

 

When a tosho is registered rikugun jumei, he was given a regular allocation of tamahagane that's all, and it is well known RJT used mill steel because tamahagane was too rare in that war times.

 

Jacques, There was more than just tamahagane issued... RJ tosho also was allocated pine charcoal by the prefecture government. I have never known that "...it is well known that RJT used mill steel". There is no mention of mill steel in any RJT document I have read and I have not seen it in a RJT blade...can members comment here too?

 

Thanks for your comments Jacques, I know this is not an area of your nihonto interest.

Regards,

George.

[cabowen]

A few counter points:

 

First, tamahagane was not in short supply. The Yasukuni smiths had all they needed and when the RJT program was launched, the army did not contract with more smiths than they could supply.

 

Well known that RJT smiths used mill steel? Well known by whom? Anyone that has actually talked with RJT about their sword production?

 

Second, the NBTHK has passed more than one star stamped blade at shinsa. At one point in time they would not pass Horii Toshihide's Mikasa steel tanto because they were not made with tamahagane. They now will and have passed these tanto because they now understand that these were made using the oroshigane process, much the same as nanban tetsu blades made in the Shinto period. As I have said before, WWII swords are not the NBTHK's specialty-they admitted as much to me when I first started asking them questions about WWII era smiths and practices. As research progressed, they have come to accept the fact that traditional blades were produced during the war and are now passing them at shinsa.

 

The NTHK-Yoshikawa is likewise not an authority on WWII era blades by any stretch of the imagination. Enough said about them.

 

The NTHK-NPO will pass star stamped blades.

 

Did RJT smiths substitute mill steel for tamahagane and sneak it pass the shinsa'in ? No doubt it happened on occasion, but it was a rare practice for several reasons: it was against the rules-most Japanese I have met follow rules and respect authority; a smith did the shinsa (at least in Tokyo) and knew steel well. It would have been very unpatriotic-smiths were by and large a very patriotic group. It would have still been put through oroshigane and for all intents and purposes, a traditional blade along the lines of the nanban steel blades.

 

I prefer to do the basic research rather than get my information second and third hand from sources without first hand experience. I have personally talked with several former RJT about their experiences and practices and none of them used mill steel to make blades under contract as it was forbidden. Granted, a small sample but having lived in Japan for 13 years I think I can make some basic assumptions...

[george trotter]

Thanks Chris,

What you say confirms my own observations of RJT blades over 40 years and my own documentary research over the past few years...RJT are gendaito and the RJT scheme is trustworthy and it's tosho are reputable. Japanese research shows tamahagane was supplied in sufficient quantity up to the last few months of 1945...and I have also spoken to the family of two RJT...their production conduct and patriotic motivation matches what you have found in your talks with RJT.

 

I am less familiar with shinsa panels but accept the experienced comments of those that have witnessed these things. Logic dictates that a knowledgeable panel would recognise genuine gendaito...thus the reports of RJT being papered. I have to say quite strongly that while there are always exceptions in nihonto, I have never found an obviously poor quality RJT blade, either in material or manufacture...if I ever do I will advise the members.

 

I too prefer direct observation and either my own and/or others properly sourced and cited research to "hearsay" and rumour. I consider your previous work invaluable to gendaito researchers and just urge you to put your findings on gendaito and especially those of RJT/Minatogawa/Yasukuni tosho etc down in writing.

 

keep up the good work,

Geo.

[drdata]

Interesting thread, but I find all star-stamped discussions as such.

 

FWIW, I plan to submit my Kanehide '43 w/star to Shinsa in upcoming SF. I sent a query to ask if they would accept a star stamped, and the contact had to check (ostensibly with the judges) if they would accept it.

 

This tell me that, even for as US shinsa, any tang stamp is a net negative.

 

The final feedback is they will accept, but its a gamble (what shinsa is not?); if not oil tempered it *might* get a paper. Given its wartime polish there is not a great deal of activity in the ha, but blade is in good shape with very little rust, so worth the price of admission just to know.

 

Regards

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

the NBTHK has passed more than one star stamped blade at shinsa

 

I will believe it when i will see one (i'm like St Thomas).

[Brian]

I for one would love to know the new NBSK's stance on Gendaito, Showato and Star Stamps..as well as Makers like Emura, Nagamitsu and the Yasukuni smiths.

I think time will tell, but their stance is going to be of importance I think.

 

Brian