Theme Assistance?

[SwordGuyJoe]

I am having a tough time seeing the theme here. Can anyone help? Also any school attribution would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Henry Wilson]

could it be an overgrown garden?

[machinist]

The object in the lower right on the first pic may be a lotus seed pod.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Perhaps a garden?

[Mark Green]

Someone practicing their inlay skills????

 

It looks like a non pro, or student piece to me.

 

The inlay is very 'rough', and some has fallen out.

 

There is a lot going on there though. It looks like it was a lot or practice.

 

A garden seems right???

[sanjuro]

Apprentice tsubako on LSD??????? :? Those flashbacks will get you every time. (I'm a child of the seventies).

 

That is one overgrown garden man. must have left the hose running. Theres waves in the bottom right corner of the first pic, However, When you start lassooing lotus seed pods with a noose you are definately on 'something'. :D

[xxlotus8xx]

  sanjuro said:

Apprentice tsubako on LSD??????? :? Those flashbacks will get you every time. (I'm a child of the seventies).

 

That is one overgrown garden man. must have left the hose running. Theres waves in the bottom right corner of the first pic, However, When you start lassooing lotus seed pods with a noose you are definately on 'something'. :D

 

If the artist was on LSD the patterns would have been more symmetrical.

[sanjuro]

Ray

 

Though I am sorely tempted, I shall not ask how you come to know that!

[Stephen]

perhaps its newer and he was a fan of Picasso

[Toryu2020]

I would agree that is a lotus seed pod and the theme is simply "Autumn"...

-t

[christianmalterre]

Hell,

 

this is the Kuden-Densho of zatobeerichi-the drunken ninjamaster!

 

Funny thing-i never saw such before!

Keep that

 

Christian

[Grey Doffin]

I have owned a similar tsuba in the past and have seen at least one other. I don't know the theme and have no idea which, if any, school this could be attributed to, but there must have been some sort of organized or purposeful turning out of these tsuba. Maybe someone could ask Jim Gilbert.

Grey

[docliss]

Dear Joe

 

Although I am unable to suggest a definite attribution for your tsuba, I believe the design to be representative of a waterway, with rocks and gabions. I am attaching images of two tsuba from my own collection that are very similar to this – even to the faintly engraved lines, from which the inlay has been lost, which resemble the fern-like decoration that is visible at 7 o’clock on both of your images. The second tsuba has a shakudō fukurin and a single kozuka-hitsu: the plate may have been reduced in size. The gabions on all three tsuba appear to have been pre-cast before being inlayed.

 

All the tsuba obviously have considerable age, and quite a lot of the crude inlay has become detached. A fourth tsuba is illustrated on p.90, #71, of Illustrated Catalogues of Tokyo National Museum: Sword Guard, where it is labelled ‘design of gabions, Heianjō school, Edo Period, 17th century’.

 

Regards, John L.

[Mark Green]

I found this one too.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Any chance someone can translate the text here and what publication is it? THank you so much for the help thus far!

 

I collect sword and sometimes those sword have tsuba attached, so i can't say that I am knowledgeable about tosogu, but it is astounding. When I saw this, I thought it was - well - kind of ugly. Now I can see a kind of uniqueness to the design and that it's not the 'typical' theme.

[Henry Wilson]

庭園図 or ていえんず　which translate as "garden or park illustration"

[Guido]

庭園 = tei-en = landscape garden, park

 

edit: oops, didn't see page 2 of the thread, Henry was faster than me ...

[reinhard]

Joe,

Text says: kuni fumei ("origin unknown"), teien-zu ("garden design"), followed by specifications,measurements and saying it's mumei. - Despite of some acid-crazed commentaries, this looks like some nice tsuba between O-Nin and Heian-Jo style to me.

 

reinhard

 

edit: Henry and Guido were ahead of me. Sorry for repeating.

[Chishiki]

Hi Joe, your timing is perfect. I recently aquired this tsuba. Regrettably a lot of inlay is missing from mine. The fairly consistant subject matter makes me speculate that it may be an actual place where people travelled to, and perhaps the local makers produced these as a momento. Is the dome like structure under the tree a bridge in the distance or some kind of shrine? Having said all that, I really don't have a clue. Mark

[Henry Wilson]

  reinhard said:

this looks like some nice tsuba between O-Nin and Heian-Jo style to me.

 

Sorry and no offense to the proud owner(s) but I can't see anything nice at all about this / these tsuba. Can someone explain to me what is nice about it / them?

[Guido]

  Henry Wilson said:

Sorry and no offense to the proud owner(s) but I can't see anything nice at all about this / these tsuba.

Henry, don't you just hate it if we have the same opinion?

[sanjuro]

Henry

 

With all due respect to the tsuba collectors. They are an elitist bunch (at least some of them), who basically think everything that looks like a tsuba has some mysterious aesthetic value. Even plain bloody ugly seems to have a following among them. To me, these tsuba have no merit, no art, and no appeal. In other words, plain bloody ugly.

Just my humble opinion, which of course has no value because it is in contravention of the opinions of 'those who know', and is therefore the ignorance of a mere plebian.

[cabowen]

Knowing how far from the "normal" Japanese aesthetics of the period these deviate makes them charming in their own right. I think of them almost as "modern" art-what Picasso might have made had he been a tsubako....They have a certain funky appeal.

[Guido]

Chris, waaaay back in high school I wrote a 30 + pages essay about Picasso's "Guernica". It's a fascinating painting with an even more fascinating history. I didn't like it back then and still don't like from an aesthetic point of view, but am able to "understand" it. I understand the "tea taste" of Higo Tsuba and appreciate the workmanship, but don't find many of them appealing. I love Nobuie Tsuba although many ask me what I see in his "crude" (or "rustic" if they're trying to be nice) decoration of the plate.

 

What kind of artistic appeal or noteworthy workmanship am I supposed to see in those "garden tsuba"?

[docliss]

Oh dear, what is it with some NMB members that makes them respond so defensively to any opinion expressed that is at variance to their own? While personally I see no aesthetic value – that word again – in the several illustrated tsuba, I do find it of considerable interest to see evidence of the Onin/Heiangō transition that may be seen on early Heiangō-zōgan work.

 

John L.

[sanjuro]

John.

 

At least you admit to seeing no aesthetic value in something that has none. The strugglings of early Heianjo/Onin tsubako to find an aesthetic and artistic identity are therefore only of an intellectual value rather than one of artistic or aesthetic significance. As a parallel one may point to the discarded, poorly forged and flawed blades of an apprentice tosho .... yes?

Interesting perhaps, but without worth.

[Henry Wilson]

Also I fail to see much Onin influence too.

 

PS Let's not fight

[cabowen]

You guys are way too uptight about these....these are really super funky in a modern art sort of way....these are the beat tsuba- jazzy, '60's trippy, Kind of Blue. Just think about how hard it must have been for these guys to express a little individuality in a craft steeped in tradition. While they certainly are not the peak of craftsmanship, the designs are quite original, unique, and certainly bold. I definitely wouldn't expect them to appeal to everyone but I feel they have a playful charm and individuality that I find refreshing....

[reinhard]

By saying "nice" I didn't mean to reveal my personal preferences. It just meant: "Possibly genuine" which is meaning a lot nowadays and on a public forum like this. My dear Hobbit friends: Put your Western preferences aside for a moment and try to anticipate the taste of samurai during middle to late Muromachi period. Here are some examples. BTW Henry, you are probably associating Onin-zogan with ten-zogan ("nail-head zogan"), but there is more to it.

 

reinhard

[reinhard]

and some more: