Arsenal Stamps.

[seattle1]

Hello:

The image posted of a Minatogawa "stamp" by Dr. Barrett is not! That has been pointed out in the literature many times and for confirmation one should go to the definitive study of Minatogawa Jinja swords by the late Herman Wallinga as published by the JSS/US. They are all individually cut.

Arnold F.

[dynkykato]

I want to ask you something:why some stamp are clear and others not?Stamp is not around.Why?

Thanks.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Simple. Have you ever been trying to hammer a nail and not hit it cleanly? Same reason. If the stamp isn't flush to the nakago, it will not come across as crisp and clear.

[dynkykato]

Ok,thank you.

[hddennis]

Here are two Nagoya stamps and two Nagoya-like stamps, but alas I'm not sure what they are.

Here's another possible Nagoya-like stamp that matches yours on a blade signed Kanemune dated 1943.

 

Howard Dennis

[hddennis]

Here's a partial tang stamp on an unsigned gunto showa-to which also has a Seki stamp.

 

Howard Dennis

[John A Stuart]

I posted this in another thread, but, include it here. It is indeed 百錬 Hyaku Ren, refined 100, likely meaning by folding and forging 100 times (not really 100, but numerous times). I've seen this before. John

[cisco-san]

Hello,

 

I would kindly ask if this is a "usual" SEKI stamp found on a Kanehisa blade.

As the blade looks quite nice, I think it´s not a Showato?!

 

Many thanks in advnace

Klaus

[John A Stuart]

Yes. 関 John

[cabowen]

That is the textbook Seki stamp.

[cisco-san]

non tradtional made?!

more details here: http://www.seiyudo.com/ka-073313.htm

[SwordGuyJoe]

Looks like it (non-traditional). Sure it's in polish, but a dead/inactive hamon and muji hada.

[k morita]

Hello,

This sword tang is Fukuda(family name) Sukemitsu(祐 光)sword in Seki, WWII period.

There is an unusual hot stamp on it.

The hot stamp says "Seki-den"(関 傳),this stamp means Seki tradition or Seki school.

 

*Pic from Yahoo auction site in Japan.

[bubba-san]

Along the same lines as Ted, I have a Nagamitsu (Ichihara) sword that has the star stamp on ALL of the fittings (tsuka, tsuba, and seppa). Here are the seppa as example.

[attachment=0]Nagamitsu Fittings 1.jpg[/attachment]

 

 

 

I also have a Nagamitsu with all of the fittings being star stamped! I wonder if that was a feature of his work ? or he purposely used/ picked fittings that were stamped with star ??

[tony123]

hello guys,

 

Can someone please help me ...

 

1) I can't seem to identify this stamp .. any ideas

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/34/vdha.jpg/

 

2) On the other side of the tang ... looks like another stamp ( or are my eyes deceiving me )

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/6ksj.jpg/

 

 

 

thanks for your help

 

tony

[george trotter]

Hi Tony,

It seems to be a badly struck "na" stamp for Nagoya arsenal.

(Look at the same? stamp illustrated a few posts above on this very page).

You don't show any details of the nakago or mei so we can't really add much, but the yasuri looks quite tidy (kessho) and the mekugiana is neatly cut so may be a better than usual WWII blade.

This mark (if it is "Na") is found on many showato type blades and fittings and is also sometimes found stamped very small on RJT blades.

Someone else may confirm or correct my assessment.

Regards,

[tony123]

George,

 

thanks for the info.

 

Here's some more pics

 

http://imageshack.us/g/1/10424611/

 

Believe it nor not, I did go through all the posting regarding the arsenal stamps, the negative image just didn't register.

Anyways, thanks for your help and any additional info would be greatful.

 

tony

[george trotter]

Hi Tony,

even enlarged I can't be sure what the stamp is...sorry,

[nihonto ken korekuta]

I had a star stamped sword that also had a seki stamp, I know each sword must be judged on its own merits but I would say that a star stamp doesn't always mean it's traditionally hand made when it has an accompanying seki or other factory stamp? I currently own another star stamped sword without any other stamps and it is traditionally made, I wish I knew for sure the reasoning behind all stamps. I will keep my eye on this cause its very interesting for me, ive had swords with seki stamps that I thought looked like "gendaito" or traditionally hand made. But I guess it is probably near imposable to tell what metal was used even if it looks like a hand made blade. But I don't understand why they would put a factory marking on it like a seki or showa stamp just because its made from a non traditional metal. So many un answered questions for me..

Andy.w

[Brian]

Andy,

Trust me...the star stamp means Gendaito.

Check the RJT article in the articles section. It's not really debateable anymore.

As for it being combined with a Seki stamp..in all the cases I have seen, that "Seki " stamp isn't the regular arsenal one, is smaller, and doesn't mean the same thing.

Pic of the Seki stamp with star stamp?

 

Brian

[george trotter]

Brian is right.

It is not uncommon to find some additional stamps on a star stamped blade. It is NOT a "bad" thing.

 

First: under the RJT scheme many blades were made in small regional towns in forges of 1 or 2 men...these usually have only the star stamp because the inspector had to come around or the swords had to be sent in to the official inspector, although the Yamagami brothers Akihisa and Munetoshi sometimes also have a "matsu" kanji within a circle and a number (this circle is their private mark).

 

Second: under RJT also, some swords were made in arsenal forges and/or in nearby forges and these all used the arsenal inspection system, and these will have the star and tiny "arsenal" marks on them, usually on the date side and/or the mune...I have seen tiny Seki, "Saka" "Ko" etc...I remember seeing a "na' and I think it was on a Nakata Kanehide RJT blade...I was told that sometimes the Seki production (for various reasons) was inspected in Seki (seki stamp) and rarely, in Nagoya (na stamp).

Some blades have "ko" and "ho" kana on the mune...these are arsenal and 1st inspection (or 2nd, I can't remember but it is on Ohmura's site).

 

Third: as an example, I had 2 Nakata Kanehide blades (his postwar work is rated 2mil Y)....virtually identical work and dated 1944. One was perfect in construction and yakiire and had usual mei/date etc plus a star stamp and 2 x tiny Seki stamps. The other had no star and no tiny stamps...the reason was that it had an almost invisible hagiri...so the stamps certainly show that they are a "good" thing to look for on a RJT sword.

 

Hope this helps,

[loiner1965]

Brian is right.

It is not uncommon to find some additional stamps on a star stamped blade. It is NOT a "bad" thing.

 

First: under the RJT scheme many blades were made in small regional towns in forges of 1 or 2 men...these usually have only the star stamp because the inspector had to come around or the swords had to be sent in to the official inspector, although the Yamagami brothers Akihisa and Munetoshi sometimes also have a "matsu" kanji within a circle and a number (this circle is their private mark).

 

Second: under RJT also, some swords were made in arsenal forges and/or in nearby forges and these all used the arsenal inspection system, and these will have the star and tiny "arsenal" marks on them, usually on the date side and/or the mune...I have seen tiny Seki, "Saka" "Ko" etc...I remember seeing a "na' and I think it was on a Nakata Kanehide RJT blade...I was told that sometimes the Seki production (for various reasons) was inspected in Seki (seki stamp) and rarely, in Nagoya (na stamp).

Some blades have "ko" and "ho" kana on the mune...these are arsenal and 1st inspection (or 2nd, I can't remember but it is on Ohmura's site).

 

Third: as an example, I had 2 Nakata Kanehide blades (his postwar work is rated 2mil Y)....virtually identical work and dated 1944. One was perfect in construction and yakiire and had usual mei/date etc plus a star stamp and 2 x tiny Seki stamps. The other had no star and no tiny stamps...the reason was that it had an almost invisible hagiri...so the stamps certainly show that they are a "good" thing to look for on a RJT sword.

 

Hope this helps,

Just a thought gentleman...

I know the RJT smiths were allotted a set amount of tamahagne to make swords with the star stamp on them but was he able to purchase some for his personal use or use left overs so to speak to make personel swords

[SwordGuyJoe]

Of course he could. Most good smiths, many of them RJT, made special order traditional blades as well as gendaito that we're not special order.

[loiner1965]

you can see where this is leading.......lol

so if a smith can purchase tamahagne for personel use or a special order

how can one tell if a gunto is just hand made or traditionally made ?

and no brian i am not refering to my kanetoshi lol just curious

[SwordGuyJoe]

We've had this conversation literally a dozen times. Just search for it.

[Brian]

Because if it was special order or privately made..he didn't get to use the Star stamp, and it had no arsenal stamp at all. So you use the typical mumei Nihonto tests. Hamon/hada/hataraki/nie.

Why would it be a Showato that he made privately? If he made it privately, or special order, then it is probably a Nihonto.

 

Brian

[george trotter]

You are all sooo naughty!!

After all the work Morita san and I did on translating the RJT instructions, and Brian posting them here...you guys haven't read it!!

About "spare" or "private purchase" RJT tamahagane...

 

Article 3 from RJT instructions:

"Drawings, instructions and materials will be supplied fot the purpose of correct manufacturing process. Where the delivery of materials for use in manufacturing is partly insufficient, the deficiency will be made up without charge, provided the cause is due to inferior material.

Conversely, where a surplus of materials occurs (unused material and unfinished items) or items failing inspection, it is required to be returned to the government".

 

It is obvious that the exact amounts of tamahagane were allotted and consumed...or returned! I do not know of the RJT selling it privately...the strict wording suggests it was as precious as gold and not just thrown about. So you see, there is no way there was "spare" tamahagane floating around...it was all accounted for. Even failed and unfinished "bits" and leftover tamahagane had to be returned. Perhaps there would have been a few "lapses", but rare.

 

About showato-gendaito by RJT -how to tell?

I have 2 swords made 9 months apart by the same RJT smith, one has a star and one does not (and have seen more of both types)...those of his with a star and those without are both gendaito...no question (I use Brian's kantei method). About the only question I can't answer is where he got his tamahagane from for the private order, but as both he and his brother were making swords from before the RJT scheme, I presume they had already fixed sources.

Just say in this case a RJT smith acquired tamahagane (other source) and he made a sword privately....if he was going to put his mei on it (and his reputation) it would have to be (a) lawfully obtained material and (b) good quality work...that is, nihonto.

I don't see a reputable smith, employed in the RJT scheme doing dodgy "showato" deals that would harm his reputation and maybe get him kicked out of the scheme. As there are plenty of gendaito out there without a star stamp, there must have been a source for tamahagane other than RJT (I have read about tatara sources, but forget now...maybe Chris can remind us of who/when these were? )

 

The only "possible" dodgy deal I have seen is the Nakata Kanehide blade I mentioned above that failed (I presume RJT)? inspection due to hagire, but was mounted (standard Type 3 govt. issue mounts, not private) anyway, and sold without any inspection stamps...this is not a common occurrence and I can't really explain it, but as a point...it was gendaito not showato and we can't tell if it was a failed RJT or "spare" RJT tamahagane or private order tamahagane, so the question here is really how did a hagire get sold? not was it gendaito or spare RJT material?...well, to close, I have also seen a beautifully mounted (top end quality) kaigunto with a blade by Suetsugu Shigemitsu (beautiful blade) with the worst forging hadaware in the kissaki I had ever seen...but yet it was sold.

Hope this helps,

[David Flynn]

I shall now throw the cat amongst the pigeons. One has in their possession a sword, that was made in 1942. It doesn't have any stamps and passes the criteria for a Gendai. How does one truly know from what type of steel it was made from? If the smith used for example, western steel. Added carbon and brought out all the traits found in Gendai, how would one know? I happen to believe this was a fairly common occurrence.

Of course, this is complete conjecture on my part.

[cabowen]

Smiths didn't use western steel and add carbon to it. No need to as it is not a problem to get western steel with a high enough carbon content as smelted. But if they did add higher carbon steel to it, and then used it as they would tamahagane, it would be considered a gendaito.

 

Whenever a smith takes a steel and adjusts the carbon in it by mixing in other carbon steels, pig iron, etc., it is called "oroshigane". If this is then made into a sword by orikaeshi tanren and yaki-ire with water, it is considered a gendaito.

[AikiScott1]

I apologize if this has already been covered, but I was thinking about the meaning of at least some of the arsenal stamps and the blades they are on and how different perspectives and assessments would be if Japan had won. If this had happened I think so many of the blades, with their associated stamps now so reviled especially amongst more serious collectors, would have probably been viewed as great treasures and symbols of the victory of Bushido. I cant help but think that it is only because Japan was more or less forced into a more peaceful mold after total defeat that art was valued over practical might, with most of these signs of militarism shunned. Thanks for your time and sorry for the tirade.- - Scott M.