Arsenal Stamps.

[John C]

If I had to guess, I'm thinking 1956.

 

John C.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

For your files - another Seki Cutlery label. Unfortunately, no other information. Looks like it may have the inspector's initials.

https://shopgoodwill.com/item/195384731

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

These really do seem to be on late war gunto.  Fairly low quality.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

I hope this is another piece of the puzzle. On page 23 of the stamps doc, you note a "KA" symbol with unknown purpose. I found the same mark on a Japanese Red Cross medal. According to Peterson's Orders and Medals of Japan, he says this was used as a kind of mint mark. Unfortunately, he doesn't say from which facility. But if there were a facility that made both swords and medals........

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, John C said:

if there were a facility that made both swords and medals........

Nice find, John!  Maybe we can chat up the medals collectors over on Warrelics to see if anyone knows company names.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 4/5/2024 at 3:05 PM, John C said:

you note a "KA" symbol with unknown purpose. I found the same mark on a Japanese Red Cross medal. According to Peterson's Orders and Medals of Japan, he says this was used as a kind of mint mark. Unfortunately, he doesn't say from which facility. But if there were a facility that made both swords and

John, just had to add this to the conversation. It is blocked by people walking by, but you can see a giant neon “KA“ in the back of the room. It’s in one of the scenes of the movie The Beekeeper.

 

[John C]

On 4/5/2024 at 4:24 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Warrelics

So I was perusing some Nick Komiya's articles and came across a document we have seen a few times. But this time I focused on a different column (please see the circled column). It has the KA mark listed for the First Factory of Osaka University Army [military] research facility. According to one article, they were involved in equipment development.

May be nothing. But I thought it was interesting - something I hadn't noticed before. 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

11 hours ago, John C said:

First Factory of Osaka University Army [military] research facility.

Is this the name at the top of this section of the chart?  If so, the "Saka" is under them too.

[John C]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Is this the name at the top of this section of the chart? 

Yes...according to google app, anyway. From right to left starting at KA = 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th factories. 

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hmmmm..... so we have a duplicate use for the "saka" stamp, unless this chart is simply showing that the Osaka Army Arsenal Supervisory Section had a position at the Osaka University research facility.  That's possible I suppose.

What say you, @Kiipu?

[John C]

18 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Osaka University

I don't think the wording refers to the university, just Osaka army arsenal. But the article mentioned the University being part of it as a research facility.

John C.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington For your files - on a Kanenori showato.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/176255601899

 

John C.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Examples of the "T.E.C." stamp on Kai Gunto, could have some relation to the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal due to their stamp? The quality on Kai Gunto with this stamp is often very good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

7 hours ago, John C said:

For your files - on a Kanenori showato.

Thanks John!  That's the best one of this shape where the writing is completely legible.  

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

"T.E.C." stamp on Kai Gunto,

Thanks John.  I only have 3 examples and as you note, all 3 have the Toyokawa stamp on the seppa as well.  I don't know the finer details of shops and forges that worked directly or exclusively for arsenals, but it appears this is so for this one.  I know SMR had their own fittings shop, but I don't know if the Army and Navy arsenals made their own fittings, too.

[BANGBANGSAN]

This is an interesting one, has both an anchor and a 岐 mark. These are all the photos of this sword that are on Facebook.

Smith 兼玄 Kaneharu

 

Date 昭和二十年五月 1945 May

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow, that's a new one on me!  Wish I could go back and see what hoops they were jumping through at the end of the war to get these gunto made and into the field. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 4/6/2024 at 5:05 AM, John C said:

@Bruce Pennington

I hope this is another piece of the puzzle. On page 23 of the stamps doc, you note a "KA" symbol with unknown purpose. I found the same mark on a Japanese Red Cross medal. According to Peterson's Orders and Medals of Japan, he says this was used as a kind of mint mark. Unfortunately, he doesn't say from which facility. But if there were a facility that made both swords and medals........

John C.

It could be 力 (Power) instead of  Katakana カ(Ka), as they used on the good luck flag and Senninbari.

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Definitely not 刀 katana, in which the strokes never cross.

 

The kanji 力 chikara/ryoku/riki with the meaning of power, strength, surge, grit, etc.

 

(As opposed to カ ka in katakana, which has no intrinsic meaning except to designate pronunciation, or to question something, and か ka in hiragana with an extra stroke, again to represent a sound.) 

[John C]

Correction noted. Sorry for the mislead, Bruce.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

18 hours ago, John C said:

Correction noted. Sorry for the mislead, Bruce.

 

John C.

Not a mislead, John, as everyone is just speculating here.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

Not sure if you have seen this one yet. A kai gunto with mei, stamped numbers, and a mini-kao.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/186415047172? 

 

John C

[Bruce Pennington]

14 hours ago, John C said:

A kai gunto with mei, stamped numbers, and a mini-kao

Thanks John!

 

I have 3 others like this, though they are mumei.  All 4, now, are stainless, kiagunto, and all 4 are numbered.  I'm thinking it's a fittings shop stamp, but still unknown.  This one is Kiyomichi.  I have 2 other Kiyomichi under the Toyokawa file

 

ND	Mumei	ワ 119 stainless	Robinalexander, NMB kaigunto gourd
ND	Mumei	148 Stainless	Phronsias, W-A, kaigunto
ND	Mumei, Tenshozan stamp	304 Stainless	Luca, NMB, Kaigunto
ND	Mumei	353 Stainless	Crimson Mist; souvenir
ND	Mumei	358; stainless	KB1107, Toyokawa, souvenir
ND	Mumei	366 Stainless	Butch, NMB Late Kai
ND	Mumei	453, stainless, Inaba stamp & unknwn stamp	Conway S, NMB
ND	Unknown	384; stainless	Kai-gunto, NMB, kaigunto; gourd
ND	Mumei	493inRomanNumerals; stainless; EnglishOnFitts	Bangbangsan,NMB, kaigunto; gourd
ND	Mumei	414; stainless	SofeAuction, Toyokawa, souvenir
ND	Kiyomichi	537; stainless	John C, NMB, gourd

[John C]

At some point, when your N is large enough, I think you will be able to cross-reference all of your charts and make a decent guess at which workshops used which methods and had which smiths working for them. This would make for an interesting and valuable booklet in terms of gunto research.

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

On 4/5/2024 at 2:05 PM, John C said:

On page 23 of the stamps doc, you note a "KA" symbol with unknown purpose. I found the same mark on a Japanese Red Cross medal.

 

Still listed as unknown.

Marks of the Japanese Red Cross Society Medals

[John C]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

Still listed as unknown

My initial thinking was letters assigned to manufacturers. But I also wonder if it were a dating system, a la the way letters are used in the UK to date silver objects.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Still listed as unknown.

Marks of the Japanese Red Cross Society Medals

Why don’t we run this by Akira Komiya over on Warrelics and see if he has any insight.

[Bruce Pennington]

Update

Asked Akira Komiya about the linked site and the kana on the medals.  He said page 2 of that site shows one of the kana to be the first character of the shop name that made the medal.  There were many shops making these medals and the kana are most likely an abbreviation of each shop name.

 

In a way, this supports our idea that the kana on naval blades are an abbreviation of the forge where they were made.

[Bruce Pennington]

I should probably start a dedicated thread for the T.E.C stamped fittings.  In answer to @PNSSHOGUN question HERE, I now have two kaigunto with signed blades.  One is Hidetoshi, the other is Kaneoto.  The Kaneoto is on this JC Militaria site

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I wanted to add my ongoing thoughts about the Gifu stamp in Sakura

 

Its source, so far, is unknown.  I made the mistake of speculating in previous Stamps of the Japanese Sword that it is possibly the stamp created by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association after the Nagoya Army Arsenal absconded with their SEKI stamp.  Appearance of the stamp in the dateline would fit the theory.  But recent data coming from the WWII Military Mei - Tachi then Katana thread reveals that the stamp is more likely an Army stamp.

 

Once I got pointed back in that direction, I realized, too, it appears on officer blades in 1943 and runs through '45 just like all the other area specific stamps do.  It's more logical that a blade with the Gifu, and sometimes the NA & Gifu, and Gifu & small Seki are all Nagoya inspectors.  It now seems illogical to think a blade would have a civil stamp from the Association plus an Army stamp.

 

I'll revise the discussion of this stamp in the next revision of the Stamps doc.