Arsenal Stamps.

[John C]

I don't know what their reasoning would be, though acid etching has been around for quite some time. We know that type 32 parade swords had their hamon acid etched. But as to a specific reason to do it on this one nakago, I have no clue. 

John C.

[Kiipu]

13 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Then being covered, Tenshozan restamped the blade a second time.  And then became a "souvenir."  Could this mean the small ones came first or a different inspector?

 

I have noticed these double-stamped anchor markings before.  You raise an interesting point about a possible wartime inspection and then a postwar reinspection taking place.  The little information that is available indicates that the Seki Guild carried out these inspections.

[Jcstroud]

It seems possible the different Naval stamps may have been a sort of grading system used by the Tenshozan ,a Military shinsa of sorts. The other oddity is the green army olive drab paint that you find on the majority of the "souvenir" type swords.it seems to be a trademark of sorts

[Zaia86]

Hello! I'm zaia. I've read the whole post but it's not clear to me. I recently bought nihonto in Japan and it has nbthk papers. in theory they told me that it is original tamahagane gendaito. it is right? or can it be showato? I will send pictures of nakago.

[Brian]

Yours appears to be fully handmade, nice hada. Gendaito, not Showato

[Bruce Pennington]

I wouldn't let the "Saka" stamp and number bother you.  The army seemed to be serializing, or tracking, RJT blades and Nagamitsu blades in 1943 & 1944.  Don't know why, but it doesn't imply that your blade is showato.  But  the stamp does give you a possible date grouping for the blade!

[Zaia86]

20 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

No dejaría que el sello y el número "Saka" te molestaran. El ejército parecía estar serializando, o rastreando, hojas RJT y hojas Nagamitsu en 1943 y 1944. No sé por qué, pero eso no implica que su hoja esté exhibida. ¡Pero el sello le da una posible agrupación de fechas para la hoja!

 

I get it from the numbering. you can tell the year but what worries me is that he paid a lot of money for this sword. It is polished and in mint condition and is wearing a really beautiful new civilian koshirae and has nbthk papers. but the truth is that I would like to know if you can be 100% sure that it is a gendaito. I read tons of information but nothing is clear. Or at least I don't understand. excuse my ignorance. if i'm talking nonsense

[John C]

1 hour ago, Zaia86 said:

I would like to know if you can be 100% sure that it is a gendaito

Without the sword in hand, no one here can be 100 percent sure. But if the sword received valid NBTHK papers, then it is definitely a gendaito and not showato. Also, as Brian said, it is easy to tell the sword is hand-made and not machine made. In addition, we can also tell it has been water quenched, which is not typical of machine made swords. And lastly, the signature is very well done. Again, not something you would typically see on a showato. Hope this helps.

John C.

[Kiipu]

5 hours ago, Zaia86 said:

I recently bought a Nihonto in Japan and it has NBTHK papers.

 

Looks like a Nagamitsu 長光, the swordsmith of many signatures.

ICHIHARA NAGAMITSU

[Bruce Pennington]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:16 AM, Jcstroud said:

It seems possible the different Naval stamps may have been a sort of grading system used by the Tenshozan ,a Military shinsa of sorts. The other oddity is the green army olive drab paint that you find on the majority of the "souvenir" type swords.it seems to be a trademark of sorts

Haven't been through all my Toyokawa files, but came across this Takeyasu in souvenir fittings with double anchor stamps:

 

I would have to do some looking, but possibly the larger anchor, with the modified tips is the post-war Toyokawa and the smaller, with the standard tips, is the wartime stamp.  Which would mean these double-stamped blades were surplus from the war, and the post-war Toyokawa stamped them again with their new logo.  Just speculating.

[Bruce Pennington]

I haven't been studying kaigunto, in general, and as a result, their stamps.  After gathering a few samples of anchor stamps, I've learned that there were two variations of the barb on the end of the large stamps.  I had believed that the "original" anchor had a barb that was small and more pulled back, pointy.  But, in fact, the barbs are simply "L" shapes inverted on the anchor tips to make a barb.  Some are small L's and others are are large:

This single blade has both, and the barbs are clear to see

 

I'm struggling to find more examples of the small anchor stamp that are clear enough or stamped well enough to see the details.  When I've found some good examples, I'll update.

 

Here are a couple more of the large stamps with slight variations in the barb

[Jcstroud]

Here is one to compare on a toyosuke "souvenir"

[Jcstroud]

An interesting note Tenshozan tanrejo was said to have a resident naval inspector,seki had inspectors and toyokawa as well could explain the 3 different ones they certainly  are different stamps.

[Jcstroud]

Tomita tool company  1943 formally Tomita shoten founded 1911

Edited April 21, 2023 by Jcstroud
Error

[Jcstroud]

Better photo 

[Kiipu]

John, can you measure the diameter of the encircled anchor stamp in millimeters?

[Bruce Pennington]

20 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Better photo

Yes, that's the "standard" small anchor I've been looking for.  It has the more pointed, angled, barbs.  And it's smaller and different than the smaller stamp I posted above on that dual-stamped blade.

[Jcstroud]

50 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Yes, that's the "standard" small anchor I've been looking for.  It has the more pointed, angled, barbs.  And it's smaller and different than the smaller stamp I posted above on that dual-stamped blade.

It measures exactly 4mm  = .157 in measured with a Starrett dial caliper  calibrated.

[Jcstroud]

22 hours ago, Kiipu said:

John, can you measure the diameter of the encircled anchor stamp in millimeters?

4mm. Or .157 inches.

[Kiipu]

Thanks John for the measurements of the small encircled anchor stamp.

 

There seems to be several different sizes of encircled anchor stamps used.  So far, 4 and 6 mm have been reported; however, there are still a few more sizes that have not yet been recorded.  Or should I say, not yet asked for.

Arsenal Stamps.

[Bruce Pennington]

The double stamped blade in my first post is owned by a buy on the Russian Guns.ru.  I've sent him a request for measurements.  It was an old post, so we will see if he replies.

[Jcstroud]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The double stamped blade in my first post is owned by a buy on the Russian Guns.ru.  I've sent him a request for measurements.  It was an old post, so we will see if he replies.

This is the other double stamped souvenir .is this the one you are looking for Bruce? How could there be 3 different designs I wonder? And  these two dont match mine either?!   Another darned mystery  !@#$%

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

3 different designs

I suspect some of these are hand-carved, and not just a stamp.

[Jcstroud]

14 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I suspect some of these are hand-carved, and not just a stamp.

It appears that the deep struck 4mm stamps are clearly stamps .the 6mm stamps some are also deep struck as well. So I will have to say I agreeably disagree even the horimono carvers are not that good and also for what logical reason would they have for doing so?

Respectfully  John

[Jcstroud]

Here is a masahiro built takayama to Souvenir sword Bruce posted thst also has the same 4mm anchor stamp as the Toyosuke built souvenir with green paint traces and hot cut tang.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 4/23/2023 at 7:10 AM, Jcstroud said:

It appears that the deep struck 4mm stamps are clearly stamps .the 6mm stamps some are also deep struck as well. So I will have to say I agreeably disagree even the horimono carvers are not that good and also for what logical reason would they have for doing so?

Respectfully  John

John,

After doing some digging, I figured out what had given me the impression that some were hand crafted.  The large stamp of one of the double stamped blades had some flaws that looked, at first glance, to be hand cut.  But I actually found another on a Hiratoshi blade with a flaw at the same 2 o'clock position.  Also, what I though was a flat cut, turned out to be yasurime line and steel build-up interfering with the stamp line.  Finally, I discovered that the stamp of this one was not a new design.  I thought it had barbs that pointed inward, but none pointing down.  After zooming, you can see the faint shadow of the downward barb on the right side.  The left side barb is lost as the stamp was struck on the shinogi.  

 

I have found, in the past, a couple of large Seki stamps that were hand punched, section by section, but so far, I'm not finding what I thought were hand worked anchors.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

John,

After doing some digging, I figured out what had given me the impression that some were hand crafted.  The large stamp of one of the double stamped blades had some flaws that looked, at first glance, to be hand cut.  But I actually found another on a Hiratoshi blade with a flaw at the same 2 o'clock position.  Also, what I though was a flat cut, turned out to be yasurime line and steel build-up interfering with the stamp line.  Finally, I discovered that the stamp of this one was not a new design.  I thought it had barbs that pointed inward, but none pointing down.  After zooming, you can see the faint shadow of the downward barb on the right side.  The left side barb is lost as the stamp was struck on the shinogi.  

 

I have found, in the past, a couple of large Seki stamps that were hand punched, section by section, but so far, I'm not finding what I thought were hand worked anchors.

Did your Hiratoshi blsde have a date ? And also do you know  what forge he worked at?  The reason is to group the like stamped swords to a forge and a resident inspector .Tenshozan reportedly had one on site.

[Bruce Pennington]

57 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

Did your Hiratoshi blsde have a date ? And also do you know  what forge he worked at?

No, they are all undated, and all I know is they carry the Toyokawa Arsenal stamp.

[Bruce Pennington]

Now, here is a variant of the large anchor, with the tight, pointy barbs we normally see on the small anchors.  I have several like this, all on Inaba Kaneyoshi blades (no dates).  They are on kaigunto, not souvenirs.  His blades are also often found with small anchor and the extra kanji that no one has really figured out.  It resembles the kanji for Inaba, but it's different enough to raise questions.

[Jcstroud]

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Now, here is a variant of the large anchor, with the tight, pointy barbs we normally see on the small anchors.  I have several like this, all on Inaba Kaneyoshi blades (no dates).  They are on kaigunto, not souvenirs.  His blades are also often found with small anchor and the extra kanji that no one has really figured out.  It resembles the kanji for Inaba, but it's different enough to raise questions.

Hey Bruce we might have something here...the above photo of the stainless nakabo the mark below the 4mm anchor stamp has the same symbol as the wood end on the tsuka  of Toyosuke #45 !