Arsenal Stamps.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Suya Koshirae have been found on a number of Nidai Yoshichika swords. Suya was one of the suppliers of Koshirae for Yasukuni-To as well.

[Bruce Pennington]

7 hours ago, Endrass said:

what is the theory about this...

Mario, thanks for the post.  Looking at the files, seems I logged that one in last year when I read the book, too.  My general feeling is that these numbers are put there by Army Arsenal inspectors.  Yet, some, like the navy blades, may not fit that mold.  These two examples, with the Suya logo right by the number, could indicate the number was put there by the shop that made the blade.  For years, we had all assumed they were stamped in by the fittings shops, and honestly some may have come about that way, but most of them follow a sequential flow over time, specific to each smith, and to me, that speaks of Army behavior, not random shops (of which there were over 1,000 operating during the war).  But it's still quite an unknown issue.

 

@Kiipu - Thomas, do you, or anyone else, have photos of that Yoshichika with the Suya 14 on it?  I have it logged into my chart, but found out I have no photos on file.

[Endrass]

Thanks to everyone for your answers!. I will continue to study and keep my eyes open for new examples to confirm the hypotheses (I would love to become a contributor to Bruce's register ).

 

@Bruce Pennington Thomas included the link to your old comment  in an earlier post in this thread. I attach it anyway.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/33862-murata-swords-村田刀/page/2/#comment-361793

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Endrass said:

Thomas included the link to your old comment  in an earlier post in this thread. I attach it anyway.

Thanks Mario!  Another one of those where I logged it into the chart and got distracted, forgetting to save the photos.

 

I want to correct my statement above about the navy blades - I don't have enough signed and dated Navy blades with stamped numbers to determine if they fit the same pattern as the Army stampings.  But with the mumei blades, the number very well could be in sequential order.  Without dates, it's not possible to know for a fact, but they do appear to be an intentional flow of numbers like the Army system.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Anyone know about this mark?

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Trystan,

These 1886 pattern Cavalry, or Type 8?, swords are a mystery.  I have one other with a double stamp, different logo, on file.  I suspect they were shops making these swords, but have no data on them.  Here's the other one I have:

[Kiipu]

I have one other on file and it only has a single stamp.  It could be the characters 内山 one over the other?

[BANGBANGSAN]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

I have one other on file and it only has a single stamp.  It could be the characters 内山 one over the other?

Any photos?

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Trystan,

These 1886 pattern Cavalry, or Type 8?,

 

Type 19 from grey blanket

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I could find very little about that hand guard style in either Dawson or Fuller.  Did they make this style hand guard into the Type 19 years? 

[BANGBANGSAN]

警視廳 Metropolitan Police Department mark

 

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

警視廳 Metropolitan Police Department mark

That'll go in the Stamps Doc for sure!  Thanks!

[PNSSHOGUN]

An unusual stamp on the seppa found HERE. They are all mismatched but the Tsuba is a early Type 94 example with two screws to hold the fittings together.

[Bruce Pennington]

Great one John!  It's posted in the Stamps Doc, now!

[Bruce Pennington]

I get to talking statistics on various stamps on other threads when they come into the discussion, but I realize it would be beneficial to keep them centralized on this thread.  So, here is a link to a post where I updated the latest observations about the Saka stamp: 

 

[MarcoUdin]

https://www.aoijapan.com/katanashoju-kanemasakogarasumaru-shape/

 

A numbered blade for Bruce, in an unfamiliar Kyu koshirae to my knowledge 

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, MarcoUdin said:

A numbered blade for Bruce, in an unfamiliar Kyu koshirae to my knowledge 

Thanks Marco!  That is definitely unusual koshirae.  Blade is legit, but I wonder about the fittings.  Yet, there was admittedly quite a lot of variation in those swords.

 

Pics added in case the link above goes dead in the future.

[Ooitame]

Hi Bruce, not to bring up an old item. However, I see you posted Saka stamps for reference. Regarding Nagamitsu and the katakana for ichi, I do wonder if this was an indication the sword was made by him. Kind of like the two stroke Naga vs other mei. As we can can assume he had others making blades given the number produced and the varying signatures. I also say this as after a polish, this Nagamitsu Saku, mune saka ichi 0313, has some of the best hada (see my name lol) and interesting hamon activity for RS I have seen. In addition the ichi kata seems rather rare.

 

For reference:

 

[Bruce Pennington]

20 hours ago, Ooitame said:

the ichi kata seems rather rare.

Eric,

It is rare.  I have only 3 with the kana + number.  All 3 have different mei, even!  Your theory could be correct, but no way to know.  After going through my files, I found 2 blades with an "一 (ichi)" as part of the mei, numbers 143 and 695, but 695 doesn't use the kana.

 

Here are the Nagamitsu I have on file, all are undated:

 

Number     Mei

イ143        Ichi Naga mitsu saku

イ313              Naga mitsu saku

695           Ichi Naga mitsu saku

1431               Naga mitsu saku

1867               Naga mitsu saku

2005          [8 kanji mei]

イ2511      [8 kanji mei]

3490               Naga mitsu saku

3973               Naga mitsu saku

3991               Naga mitsu saku

 

So, the 3 blades with kana + number have 3 different mei styles.  Don't know what to make of it.

[Ooitame]

Bruce, I am still unsure myself just trying to figure it out. I don't think like mantetsu it was month/poem. Maybe just the pick of the litter?

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, Ooitame said:

still unsure myself

Ok, sorry it took me so long to remember this, but I have been tracking blades with katakana + number, and they seem to be tied to the prefecture of the smith.  In some cases, we have more than one smith from the same prefecture with the same kana, which confirms the theory.  In the case of Nagamitsu, we don't have another smith's blade with the mark as confirmation, but it fits the same pattern as the others.  Part of the mystery is that some of his blades are numbered without kana. 

 

So still a mystery, but I believe it is a prefecture designation.  Maybe an Army inspector stationed in that prefecture, in this case Fukuoka, used this kana.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another long Mei Nagamitsu: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e1058662094

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Another long Mei Nagamitsu

I have always wondered why sword sellers don't post photos of the nakago.  Very frustrating.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Bruce, there are additional photos if you scroll down.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hmmm.  6 kanji mei, leaves off the 2 kanji above the "ichi".  I'll take these over to Translations for clarification.  His name was Ichihara Ichiryushu Nagamitsu, so I suspect the 6 kanji mei left off one of the names.

 

Also Interesting is the open heart, or open boar's eye stamp on the seppa.  I have one of these on record, and in the Stamps Doc, but cannot find the original.  I think I got it from one of Neil's @IJASWORDS gunto.  Neil, do you recall this one, and if so, which sword was it mounted on?  Was it your Nagamitsu?

[Ooitame]

Hi Bruce, I have considered an inspector stamp as a possibilty. However would the stamp not be a arsenal, unit, or star stamp. Also I believe Nagamitsu worked from Osaka; not sure if it falls under the Fukuoka prefecture.

 

P.S. I saw a document sometime back for inspection marks and noticed the ichi kana. Might be worth a dig.

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, Ooitame said:

Nagamitsu worked from Osaka

Ahem.... I just got an education!  Re-read Slough's pages on Nagamitsu - both of them!  Seems there was an RJT qualified ENDO Nagamitsu working from Fukuoka.  He used a variety of mei, including a 2 kanji.  But the other guy was Ichihara Ichiryushi Nagamitsu who worked from Osaka, and used quite a variety of mei.  Since we have a 'イ' stamped blade with the Ichihara mei, we can assume all 3 of them were by Ichihara, and therefore, the mark is an Osaka mark, not Fukuoka (not to mention the fact that both the 143 and 2511 blades also have the Saka stamp!!!).  I'll make the change to the Stamps Doc. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Bruce, one more Yamamoto shop stamp on a sword by Yasuoki. The trend of the officers name on the Tsuba continues and also note the specific hanger pattern from this shop. So now we know this shop was producing military fittings from at least the late 20's/early 30's (Kyu Gunto), mid 30's (Type 94) and early 40's (Type 98).

 

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r1058686955

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Great find John!  That's a long-standing shop.  Sort of like the Suya history.  Pics added to the files!

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

興亞 mark，only one photo