Arsenal Stamps.

[Kiipu]

On 2/27/2021 at 8:54 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Seki stamps showed up in 1941 and are seen through the end of the war, so the whole '41-'45 range is possible, but the lion's share of Seki stamped blades with dates are in the 1942 year group.

 

I somewhat disagree as there are two sizes of 関 [Seki] stamps and they should be studied by the size of the stamp and not all lumped together.  It seems the large Seki stamp is a guild or association stamp and hence the lack of date markings on some, but not all, swords.  The smaller Seki stamp that came later is a Nagoya Arsenal inspection mark and since inspected by the army will be dated per regulations.  I have inserted the kanji characters for the two different organizations mentioned in the quote below.

 

Quote

The association [関刀剣商組合] all appealed for the new work Japanese sword produced from steel materials to the country and the prefecture that "Seki Cutlery Industrial Guild" [関刃物工業組合] inspects. The acceptable product was fixed that it stamps the "Seki" character on the swod-tang of a sword. Behind, therefore, an acceptable product came to stamp the mark of "being a character of Shō in cherry blossoms" on instruction of the Department of the Interior. A "Shō" character is the abbreviated name for "Shōwa." This guarantees the quality of a practical use sword. Since it succeeded in Seki-chō making the quality of a practical use sword guarantee, most of all the sword demand has been monopolized.

関・軍用日本刀 Syōwa-tō of Seki

[b.hennick]

I have a WWII sword with a large Seki stamp. It was discussed in this thread. It is a traditionally made blade.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

I somewhat disagree as there are two sizes of 関 [Seki] stamps and they should be studied by the size of the stamp and not all lumped together.  It seems the large Seki stamp is a guild or association stamp and hence the lack of date markings on some, but not all, swords.  The smaller Seki stamp that came later is a Nagoya Arsenal inspection mark and since inspected by the army will be dated per regulations.  I have inserted the kanji characters for the two different organizations mentioned in the quote below.

It will take me a while to go through my Seki files.  I have 19 dated blades and 50 with no date.  So far I've completed a look at the dated ones:

Seki 1941Jan Kanemichi Slough             Large

Seki 1942       Kanemichi                           Large

Seki 1942       Kanemichi NGFcollection Large

Seki 1942       Kiyonobu (unknown)

Seki 1942       Masayuki Gunzuko            Large

Seki 1942       Toshimasa                          Large

Seki 1942       Yoshishige Fuller               Large

Seki 1943       Tadayuki                             Large

Seki 1943       Yoshishige Star Pennington Large

Seki 1944 Aug Kanehide Star RSnihontocraft     Small

Seki 1944         KanehisaSeSe Fuller     Large & Small

Seki 1944 May Kunitoshi Star Slough                 Small

Seki 1944 May Kunitoshi Star Slough                 Small

Seki 1944 Oct Nobumitsu RS                               Small

Seki 1944 Sep Nobumitsu JamesrNMB             Small

Seki 1945        Kanenori Na (unknown)

Seki 1945        Kaneyoshi Fuller                           Small

Seki 1945        Katsunori (unknown)

Seki 1945        Yoshitada                                       Small

 

So far, Looks like the Large Seki ran through 1943 and the small Seki ran in '44 and '45.

 

When I get a chance, I'll look over the undated blades to see if anything stands out.

 

Update: Went through the first 20 of 50 undated, and all are Large Seki, so far.

[Kiipu]

If I am interpreting Ohmura sensei correctly, the large 関 [Seki] stamp was replaced by another stamp to avoid duplication of stamps with the army.  In this case, I think the replacement stamp is probably the 岐 [Gi] within a sakura [cherry blossom].  Do any of the smiths above that used the large Seki stamp now start using the Gi stamp in 1944 and 1945?

 

Stepping aside for a moment, lets look at the use of the Seki stamp on the Type 95 Military Sword.  The Nagoya two hundred thousand range starts off with the 名 inspection stamp.  The low serial number being 名200437.  Not long after, the Seki stamp shows up at serial number 関201505 and continues on up to the high serial number of 関216854.  Occasionally, an older 名 stamp will show up, such as serial number 名204877; but, this is more of an exception to the rule.

 

Bruce, are you still following my train of thought in regards to this matter?

[Bruce Pennington]

7 hours ago, Kiipu said:

are you still following

Yes, I see where you're going.   So, my sample size is too small to really chase down your idea.  But here is what I have, and it sort of confirms it:

 

Of the dated blades above, only 1 - Nobumitsu, with a small seki - had a blade later with a Gifu stamp

 

Aug 1944 Nobumitsu  small Seki on nakago, Gifu in sakura on mune

 

Out of 15 Gifu-stamped blades on file, 5 smiths had matching blades in the Seki-stamped list:

 

1944, Jun  Norinaga Gifu - No Date Large Seki

1944, Aug Nobumitsu Gifu on mune -- small Seki

1945, Jan Katsumasa Gifu - No Date Large Seki

1945, Feb Masahiro Gifu - No Date Large Seki

1945, Feb Kanemune Gifu - No Date Large Seki

 

Considering what we observed earlier, the Large Seki stamped blades were likely made no later than 1943. 

 

Like I said, it's a tiny sample, but it fits your idea.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

An update on the "5 measures" hotstamp identified by Richard Fuller, who said of the stamp:

"(vii)  ‘Five measures’ stamp. Literally Go (5)-To (measure of capacity. (1 To = 3.97 Imperial gallons). Significance unknown. Very rare."

 

I ran into it going through the Cillo edition of Slough on a blade by Ogawa Tofuji 小川 外藤 .

 

  Knowing that some hotstamps can contain a kanji of the smith's name, I thought I'd run the item by @mecox and his lovely bride for an opinion.  Mal's amazing research skills came through and uncovered the fact that Tofuji was a smith at the Goto Kaji-jo (Goto Sword Forging Centre) in Seki!  Mal also pointed out that the stamp is in the shape of the old gourd sake bottles

and the 2 kanji closely resemble a couple of sake volume terms:

1 gou 合 = 180 mL (0.1804 L) (a standard serve of sake)
1 shou 升 = 1804 mL (1.804 L) (1 shou = 10 gou)
1 to 斗 = 18040 mL (18.04 L) (1 to = 10 shou = 100 gou)

He wondered if the image is a play on words between the Shop name and sake references.

 

I then ran the whole discussion by Nick Komiya HERE at Warrelics, who agreed with Mal and added:

 

 

Mal is looking for blades by Tofuji's teacher, who also worked at the shop,  Koketsu Kanekami 纐纈 兼上, to see if he also used the stamp, but so far it seems that only Tofuji blades have the mark.

 

It is quite possible that the stamp is a craftily made play on all the above, playing the shop name into a statement that he's getting paid like a low-class Samurai with 5 measures of sake!  Quite brilliant!

 

Mal has a brief article on the topic, that I've jumped the gun in quoting from.  All of this info comes from his work and Nick's insight.  Many thanks to both of them!

 

I don't know how I'll amend this item in the Stamps Document.  It practically will need a page of it's own!

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 3/4/2021 at 2:14 PM, Kiipu said:

If I am interpreting Ohmura sensei correctly, the large 関 [Seki] stamp was replaced by another stamp to avoid duplication of stamps with the army.  In this case, I think the replacement stamp is probably the 岐 [Gi] within a sakura [cherry blossom].  Do any of the smiths above that used the large Seki stamp now start using the Gi stamp in 1944 and 1945?

I've re-arranged my stamp survey chart, and you can see that the "NA" stamp initially replaced the large Seki in 1943.  They then went to the Gifu in 1944 and '45.

 

STAMP SURVEY

 

Stamp	1935	1938	1939	1940	1941	1942	1943	1944	1945	No Date
Showa	1	1	3	13	9	1			1	106
Seki				2	7	33	9	9	5	83
Na					2		23	3		1
Gifu Total							2	14	22	2

[Kiipu]

In the table, you need to separate the non-military stamps from the military stamps.  The table should  be in the order below.

昭 Shō within/inside a cherry blossom.

関 Seki (5 mm height per link in post #632).

岐 Gi within a cherry blossom.

 

After the non-military stamps, the military inspection marks can be listed.  What is the height of the small 関 [Seki] stamp in millimeters?

[Bruce Pennington]

On 3/7/2021 at 11:08 AM, Kiipu said:

The table should  be in the order below.

 

 

 

 Civil Stamps

Stamp	1935	1938	1939	1940	1941	1942	1943	1944	1945	No Date
Showa	1	1	3	13	9	1			1	106
Seki				1	1	6	2			58
Gifu Total						1 G/s		7 5 G/s	15 2 G/s	3

G/s – Gifu and small Seki stamps

Arsenal Stamps

 

To & Ko										6 on Kyu and Zoheito
Seki, small								5	3
Na					2		23	3		1
Saka							1	5		8
Nan							1
Toyokawa Anchor							1			16

Tenzoshan Anchor

1

1

4

4

5

 

 

 

 

[Kiipu]

Quote

The navy technical official of Navy Kamakura Tenshōzan Workshop stamped the inspection mark on the acceptable product.

耐錆鋼刀　Stainless steel swords

 

The navy had an inspector at Tenshōzan Tanren-Ba 天照山鍛錬場 that used a unique anchor stamp.  Below are the occurrences of the anchor stamp by year.  For reasons unknown, Tenshōzan seems to have stopped dating blades sometime in 1943 or 1944.

1939: 1.

1940: 0.

1941: 0.

1942: 4.

1943: 4.

Undated: 3 (most likely made after 1943).

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

 

The navy had an inspector at Tenshōzan Tanren-Ba 天照山鍛錬場 that used a unique anchor stamp.  Below are the occurrences of the anchor stamp by year.  For reasons unknown, Tenshōzan seems to have stopped dating blades sometime in 1943 or 1944.

1939: 1.

1940: 0.

1941: 0.

1942: 4.

1943: 4.

Undated: 3 (most likely made after 1943).

I didn't realize the Tenshozan stamp was a military inspector.  I had always assumed it was a shop stamp, but it makes sense that it would be a military inspector.  It spans the full spectrum across the years of civil stamps and military ones.  I wonder if it began as a private shop stamp and was adopted by the military after 1942.

 

My count is similar to yours (I've added it to the one above):

Stamp

1935

1938

1939

1940

1941

1942

1943

1944

1945

No Date

Tenzoshan Anchor

1

1

4

4

5

[Bruce Pennington]

On 3/7/2021 at 11:08 AM, Kiipu said:

What is the height of the small 関 [Seki] stamp in millimeters?

The only one I have is on the nakago mune, but it is 2.75mm.

 

It would be nice to get someone with the small stamp on the side of the nakago to get a measurement.  I can't imagine that they are just as small, but maybe they are.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Saw these photos of a 略装 98, ONLY 3 photos NO other photos. It had the K 171 assemble number on all the parts, and a Star mark on the tang, but the guy state there is NO signature Or Date other than the star stamp, the blade length is 55cm.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

NO signature Or Date 

That's the first "K" numbered blade I've seen!  At first glance, the blade seems mumei, but I think the corrosion build-up is thick enough to cover a mei.  It would be tachi mei, but I've seen blades marked that way.  Looks legit.  The star is usually above the ana, but I've seen one with the star actually in the middle of the mei.  So, there is some variation in location.

[Bruce Pennington]

MAJOR Update on the "Law that required stamping of non-traditionally made blades"

 

Please visit THIS DISCUSSION ON WARRELICS  for the full discussion.

I asked Nick Komiya if he could find any documentation for the rumor that a law was passed around 1938 requiring stamps on blades not traditionally made.  His research has shown that no such law was ever passed. 

 

My summary of our discussion:

"Both the Japanese websites you checked and your your discussion with Ohmura-san agree on the fact that originally, the Seki Guild adopted the Seki stamp to market their swords as either a) able to withstand bend/break testing, and/or b) as traditionally made swords, standing apart from the factory produced imitations.

First-hand reports by owners of blades with the large Seki stamp confirm that the blades were gendaito, traditionally made, supporting this scenario.

Then, the Seki Guild was using the 関 until the "Sekiwake factory under the Nagoya Arsenal decided to use the abbreviation of Seki on its own swords".

My survey results point to the year 1943 when that happened.

Neither the websites nor Ohmura-san knew the origins of the Showa 昭 stamp.

Neither point of the stamp history involved a law or regulation. The 関 was created for commercial purposes, and the changes in stamping came about when the Army assumed control of sword production and may have involved Ministry moderation between the Guild and the Army.

Discussion time:
The period when the industry was responding to complaints of blades breaking in the cold; their response to test and prove their blades - Could the original stamp have been the 昭 stamp? My 1935 昭 stamped blade would support the idea. If so, then we have no idea why it was abandoned/switched to the large 関. But that is wild speculation as we have nothing to suggest it or explain it. But we also don't have an explanation for not seeing the 関 prior to 1940, which is considerably late for a response to blades breaking in the 1930s."

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

A follow-up from Nick, quoted in full:

 

."First, is what the Seki City site says about its cutlery industry in WW2. They have a long chronology chart of Seki City history and I provide the full translation of the first boxed section from the original below.


Blade Manufacturing as Part of the Armament Industry

Because the United States and England adopted China-assisting policies in the early years of Showa, Japanese products were driven out of world markets, shutting off Japan’s exports. Thus the mainstay exports of Seki’s cutlery industry such as knives, dishes and kitchen knives took a huge hit and those producers were transformed into suppliers for the military.

During the war, Seki’s entire cutlery industry got drawn into supplying the military, and sword-smithery was once again a thriving industry. In those days, military swords were called Showa-toh to differentiate them from traditional Japanese swords, but as demand grew, bad quality Showa-toh appeared on the market, becoming a social problem. To counter this problem, the sword dealers of Seki devised a program to assure quality by having the Seki Cutlery Manufacturing Industry Association test all newly produced Japanese swords and stamped products that passed this test.

This quality assurance program, combined with the trainee program at the forge and efficiency improvements coming from specialization and job-splitting of the production process, allowed Seki swords to gain the reputation of being affordable yet high quality, leading to a 90% share of Japan’s entire market supply.

The sword industry of Seki in 1944 consisted of 49 smiths of traditional swords, 200 smiths of Showa-toh and 3,000 Polishers.

Secondly, although the Ohmura site claims that the Sekiwake 関分 plant under the Nagoya Arsenal adopted the Seki stamp as their acceptance stamp, the code list from 1943 below attributes it to the Seki Supervisory Group of the Nagoya Arsenal, one of a total of 10 acceptance outposts of the Nagoya Arsenal. Note also that "Na" in Katakana was from the Iwahana Plant under the 2nd Tokyo Arsenal and it was the Kanji version that stood for the Supervisory Dept. of the Nagoya Arsenal. 関分 is clearly another mistake.

It is clear from the Seki City write-up that it was the non-traditional Showa-toh that invited the quality test and stamping and the later Sho in cherry blossom is obviously in direct reference to the distinction, "Showa-toh". I cannot imagine why he had to tie it to the Ministry of the Interior. Traditionally made Nihonto made by the 49 smiths were not called Showa-toh.

The site says "All newly made Japanese swords got tested", as if testing was not limited to Showa-toh that ruined the reputation earlier.

The Seki City History book consisting of more than a thousand pages will surely have more details. I just secured a cheap second hand copy of the 1999 issue, so in a few months, I should have a few more facts for you to chew on.

For now you'll need to ask Kiipu for the rest of the source material to back up the summary you made. "

 

I wish the site had shown or named the stamp. From the discussion's mention that blades that passed the testing were stamped, it seems the stamp makes no distinction between gendaito and showato. If so, this lends support to the many guys with stamped blades that swear the blade is water-quenched, folded steel (though all acknowledge that no one can know what type of steel was used), and the one oft-told story of a Showa-stamped blade that passed Shinsa.

I also like his thought connecting the early use of the term showa-toh and the use of the Sho in sakura for the stamping. If this is how it began, then sometime later, the Seki smiths decided to switch to the seki stamp for reasons unknown (possibly to distinguish themselves from other sectors of the industry).

I honestly look forward to hearing anything we can get from his new book!

 

My reservation, still, about all this is that our collective experience with these war blades seems to back up the idea that they were only stamping non-traditionally made blades.  One possibility is that the early part of this history, the testing and stamping at the behest of the Seki industry was broad-based testing and stamping, but once the Army took over in late '41, early '42, they might have had a policy of only stamping non-traditional blades.  Of course another option is that ALL blades, traditional or not, turned into the Army got stamped; but blades sold to shops and clubs, whether traditional or not, went unstamped or at most stamped with the Gifu in Sakura.

 

 

[vajo]

Showa-to not Showa--toh

[Bruce Pennington]

2 minutes ago, vajo said:

Showa-to not Showa--toh

Yes.  That was Nick's spelling in his translation of the Seki City site.

[vajo]

Ah i understand. Romanji problems  

[Kiipu]

2 hours ago, vajo said:

Showa-to not Showa--toh

 

Are we having problems spelling Japanese today?

昭和刀 = Shōwa-tō = Showa- toh.

Toh is just the old style of rendering ō.  It is phonetic based and works out well.  Still used by older Japanese, including my translator from long ago.  Since Showa is a word used in the English language, the macrons are dropped, just like the spelling of Tokyo.  This is because the average English speaker has no idea what a macron is nor how it is pronounced.  The spelling of ō as oh solves this problem.  Sometimes in life, one must think how things were done on a typewriter versus a word processor.

[vajo]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Are we having problems spelling Japanese today?

昭和刀 = Shōwa-tō = Showa- toh.

Toh is just the old style of rendering ō.  It is phonetic based and works out well.  Still used by older Japanese, including my translator from long ago.  Since Showa is a word used in the English language, the macrons are dropped, just like the spelling of Tokyo.  This is because the average English speaker has no idea what a macron is nor how it is pronounced.  The spelling of ō as oh solves this problem.  Sometimes in life, one must think how things were done on a typewriter versus a word processor.

 

Thanks for correcting this Thomas. My fault.

[Kiipu]

Have you found a Yasutsuna stamp yet?  See Slough, page 194.

 

Quote

A stamp which portrays an electric light bulb with the letters BS (very rare)

 

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Have you found a Yasutsuna stamp yet?  See Slough, page 194.

 

 

No.  All I have is the Slough reference, but his oshigata of it is hard to see.  I thought I had a memory of it being discussed, but my search of it comes up empty.  Do you have one spotted?

I was able to enlarge it enough to make out the letters:

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Another update on the background history:

 

Nick's found an Police letter which addresses the concerns about gimei (mentioned by Keven Jones, Ryujin Swords) and poor quality showato (Seki City website)

 

You can read his post (#36) HERE. Here is his post:

 

Nihon-to 911

I earlier mentioned that Ohmura-san’s theory about the Ministry of the Interior imposing stamping on swords made by non-traditional methods was unfounded, as no such law was ever published in the government gazette.

However, it is true that the Ministry of the Interior, responsible for policing was greatly concerned about the fraudulent manner in which “Showa-to” was being sold right after the China Incident of 1937.

The following Police memo is from a police file containing all gun, sword and explosive control documents for the year 1938 and earlier.

The APB memo is dated 1st October 1937, the entirety of which I translated below. It instructs prefectural police to crack down on certain fraudulent sales activities regarding Nihon-to, while they contemplate a more fundamental solution to the frauds occurring in the market.

However, no further police documents got issued on this topic up to the end of 1938, which indicates to me that the fraudulent claims made to sell “Showa-to” ceased to be a police concern between October 1937 and December 1938. It is very likely that the police was agreeable to voluntary initiatives proposed by the cutlery industry to impose quality tests upon itself and stamp products with its seal of approval.

It is also interesting to see that the police regarded the word “Showa-to” as a deceptive marketing gimmick in those days, equally misleading as the ridiculous term “Super Nihon-to”.

I should also add that this was also accompanied by the leaflet I showed here calling for sword donations.

Regarding policing of the sale of Japanese swords and encouraging citizen sword donations

1st Oct. 1937

Letter from the Chief of Police & Security Bureau of the Ministry of the Interior to the Police Chiefs of Prefectures.

As the demand for Nihon-to has surged since the outbreak of the China Incident, recently, sales of swords claiming to be “Showa-to 昭和刀” or “Super Nihonto 超日本刀” have increased, promoting them as if they were comparable in quality to traditional Nihon-to.

However, some such products are said to be of dubious quality, made of material totally different from traditional Nihon-to, out of such inferior material as stainless steel or western steel, which can easily bend or break only after being used a couple of times or poor in sharpness.

These swords, despite such defects are being promoted and advertised in a way that mislead buyers into believing them to be equals of traditional Nihon-to, and at exorbitant prices. Such practices are harmful to social order and, in consideration of the fact that such defective products may end up in the hands of our soldiers called to the battlefield as a result of the Incident, they may even lead to casualties that become immeasurable military setbacks.

Thus we are currently contemplating fundamental approaches to rectify this problem. In the meanwhile, we expect you to enforce order by focusing on the following three points, to prevent consumers from being deceived of the true nature and value of the products offered them.

Additionally, as a means to offset the shortage of Nihon-to supply caused by this Incident and as a preemptive measure against the forgoing fraudulent sales practices, please call upon sword owners to encourage them to donate their swords to the military in the same manner as the 16th August memo regarding the transfer of pistols and live ammunition thereof.

Lastly, please be aware that these points have already been discussed and agreed with the Army and Navy Ministries.

1. Crack down on those that engage in deceptive practices that misrepresent the true worth of the items being sold through exaggerated claims in promotions and advertising.

2. Crack down on those that apply Gimei to swords or provide false appraisals.

3. Inhibit attempted sales of swords at unjustifiably exorbitant prices

.

Police Letter.docx

[vajo]

Maybe a little smaller Bruce?

 

[Kiipu]

14 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Do you have one spotted?

 

No but when I do you will be hearing from me!

[Bruce Pennington]

ANOTHER update!

In discussing the foil labels:

I realized the organization - Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Society - is the same organization mentioned in the Seki City website that was doing the showato testing and stamping!  When and why they moved to foil labels rather than nakago stamps is unknown.  I'm going to try to backtrack on these gunto to see if the blades were dated.  If anyone reading this owns one like this, please post your nakago, especially if it's dated.

[Bruce Pennington]

I did a survey at NMB and found 7 gunto with the blue sticker and 5 with the silver.  None of the blue ones had dated blades, but they range in obvious fittings from high-quality kaigunto to low-end late-war army.  A couple of the silver ones were on 1942 blades (one undated but with large Seki stamp; other dated Feb 1942).  The rest were mumei or blades unknown.  One was even found stuck right onto the outside of the leather saya cover.  One had an old family blade in it.  But 1942 is the earliest date found, which coincides with the Army takeover of the Seki logo. Maybe this was their initial response to losing the logo before adopting the Gifu?

The one with the old blade makes me think the sticker was more of a "Final total package" approval, or even a koshirae inspection approval. 
 

 

 

[Stephen]

Just seen on FB Manchurian blade I have asked for any marks on mune.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/255263006217/permalink/10158019843516218/

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Stephen
Add link

[Stephen]

Which one is that Bruce? Looks like a shield.