Arsenal Stamps.

[Mark C]

Thanks Bruce, 

 

Very interesting, a mixture of suguha and wild, like mine.

[Kiipu]

4 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

... that small stamp on your seppa is the Nakano Shoten logo.

 

That would indicate the WARRIOR stamp was not that of a sword fitting shop then?

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

That would indicate the WARRIOR stamp was not that of a sword fitting shop then?

I'm guessing the stamp was of a forge, in a similar fashion to Amahide's Tan Rej Jo.  He had a hotstamp that has been seen on 4 other smiths' blades that worked at his forge.

 

Maybe @mecox can confirm that Yoshisuke and Yoshichika worked together at a single forge/shop?

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 8/21/2024 at 10:04 PM, GeorgeLuucas said:

That seems a likely scenario! Previously I had wondered about the possibility of suicide or hunger. I wonder how Marcus Sesko aquired his death-date, and if any other info was available.

You've caused me to go down a rabbit hole of the bombing campaign in July before the big bombs were dropped; very interesting! 

Thank you!
-Sam

If he died in July 9th 1945 insted of July 7th，then could be during the Gifu（where he work)air aids

昭和20（1945）年7月9日、今日も一日無事で終われると多くの人が思っていた午後11時頃、人々の思いを裏切り、ついに岐阜市にも米軍による空襲が行われた。

　空襲は数時間続き、約130機のB29が参加し、1万発以上の収束焼夷弾と焼夷弾が投下された。

空襲の目標点として、市街地の中心であった徹明通りと金華橋通りの交差する地点が設定されたため、街は瞬く間に火の海となり、多くの建物が焼け、約900人もの市民が犠牲となった。

On July 9, 1945 (Showa 20), around 11 p.m., when many people thought the day would end peacefully, Gifu City was finally subjected to an air raid by the U.S. military, betraying their expectations.

The raid lasted for several hours, involving around 130 B-29 bombers, which dropped more than 10,000 incendiary bombs and cluster incendiary bombs.

The target of the raid was set at the intersection of Temmei Street and Kinkabashi Street, which was the center of the city. In an instant, the city was engulfed in flames, with many buildings burned down and about 900 citizens losing their lives.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 8/21/2024 at 10:04 PM, GeorgeLuucas said:

That seems a likely scenario! Previously I had wondered about the possibility of suicide or hunger. I wonder how Marcus Sesko aquired his death-date, and if any other info was available.

You've caused me to go down a rabbit hole of the bombing campaign in July before the big bombs were dropped; very interesting! 

Thank you!
-Sam

Or he was sent to China as a battlefield sword repair smith. Some of the smiths returned to Japan, while others died there.

[GeorgeLuucas]

42 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

If he died in July 9th 1945 insted of July 7th，then could be during the Gifu（where he work)air aids

Wow, thank you so much! That’s so interesting and paints a really dismal picture of Gifu that evening… It must have been a terrifying night. 
 

Much appreciated! It’s this history, and these kinds of stories that I find so fascinating about WW2 swords. I always learn a lot about more than just the blade. 
 

Thanks again,

Cheers,

-Sam

[PNSSHOGUN]

A curious stamp on a Showa era sword: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/m1157818593

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow, John, quite unique!  I'm posting it with the other kiku in the Stamps doc, though it's fairly likely not tied to shogunate work.  Makes me wonder after looking at them all if the kiku with stems and leaves were shogunate work or not as well.  That would mean going back to look a the smiths involved and possible dates.  Maybe someday.

[mecox]

John and Bruce, interesting blade and hamon.  I wonder if this stamp could be related to the Minatogawa Jinja Forge in Kobe, although this is katana-mei.   Example by Masanao in tachi-mei.  But artistically stamp could be sunset over a mountain??  Also different number of petals/rays.

 

[Kiipu]

A rising sun over Mount Fuji 富士山 with clouds or lake to the left?

[PNSSHOGUN]

The blade precludes any work by a serious Gendai Tosho, the Hada is quite.....vivid to say the least. Similar to the mixed metal works by the Amahide smiths.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Anything is possible with this one.  I personally think it's handmade, and something put there for whatever value or good luck the kikusi brings to the blade/soldier.  

 

You can see two horizontal lines under Fuji, like you might see under a kiku, and I have other examples with less than the normal number of petals:

[3Jean]

On 3/3/2024 at 11:49 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Wow, John! Good one! Will need to bring in the experts on this:

 

@Kiipu @SteveM @BANGBANGSAN

 

Minor Update:  Looks like I have this one on file from Aug '23.  Bbdear was selling it back then, but as far as I can tell, we never got this side translated.

Good morning,

I apologize for going so far back in this thread, but I just bought this particular sword, and i was wondering if you had any more info about it. I found the stamp in your 'Stamps' guide (very handy!) showing it to be a Toyokawa arsenal blade. Any idea when it was made? Conway S said it was stainless. Might be fun to collect all of the different types from the war era.

Thanks!

John

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, 3Jean said:

fun to collect all of the different types from the war era

Yes!  That's exactly what I did with my collection.

 

The stainless (anti-rust) blades were made all through the war, beginning in the mid/late '30s, so can't tell by that.  Looking at the tsuka, it's got lacquered leather or skin of some type.  I THINK that was later in the war, but still not definitive.  That's the best I can give you on that.  It's possible one of the other guys knows more about them.

[3Jean]

Thanks for responding Bruce! I still have a lot to learn about this stuff. The leather on the saya is kind of dried out in spots and cracking/splitting. Is it ok to use a leather restoration product on it or should I just leave it as is?

Best

John

[Bruce Pennington]

That's a personal choice.  If you search "preserve leather" or "leather preservation" you'll get a few discussions on the topic.  Several guys have had success using various products.  Here's one discussion:

 

These guys recommend Ren Wax

https://www.gunboard...403143#post-11403143

[3Jean]

I need to improve my search fu, thanks again Bruce!

[Bruce Pennington]

Update on the Navy anchor stamp we have all been attributing to the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal.

 

We no longer believe that to be the case, and think it is a generic Navy Inspection stamp, not specific to any arsenal.

 

Thomas - @Kiipu - has been making this point for a few years, but it never caught my attention (chasing too many other rabbits at the time).  So, he got Mal - @mecox - to listen and stir the pot.

 

For decades, we have called it the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal stamp because of Ohmura's page and Richard Fuller showed it as such in his books.  The chart on page 228 of his '96 edition came from someone or something before his work, and he now agrees with Thomas and Mal.

 

-- The stamp, on swords, only appears on blades made by the Tenshozan factory.  They are stainless steel blades made by Tenshozan (some stainless blades were made in Seki, but likely processed by Tenshozan).  Two blades made at the Takayama forge have been found with the stamp.

-- The circled anchor is also seen on things not associated with Toyokawa, like aircraft and electronics labels.

-- No documented evidence could be found showing that Toyokawa was in any way associated with sword manufacturing, or processing, while it has been found for other arsenals like Sasebo, Maizuru, and Yokosuka.

 

Mal is revising his Navy Swords articles, and the Stamps of the Japanese Sword document will carry this revision when it comes out next March.

 

For the record, these are the stamps of the various arsenals.  They were hand drawn by the original author and slightly inaccurate, but nothing that significantly impacts our point.  The circled anchor is not on the list.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

As a result, we now have the anchor in sakura stamps, found on fittings, dirks, and other weapons, that we no longer know their origins.

 

The fact that they are seen with other shop stamps, like Suya and Nakano, tells me they are likely Navy inspector stamps as well.

 

We also see this one, with a coiled rope on the shaft, with the Gunto Sai Saku Jo shop logo:

 

These will be reclassified in the March edition of the Stamps doc as "unknown, possibly Navy Inspector"

Ohmura, and the chart Fuller used, lists this as a Toyokawa stamp, but there is just no evidence that support that claim.

 

[RobCarter3]

Fantastic info. Thank you @Kiipu @mecox and @Bruce Pennington for this research and advancing our knowledge. 
 

If sword blades with the anchor-in-circle stamp were made or processed at Tenshozan, is there any significance to the different anchor stamp that we already associated with Tenshozan? 
 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

It is Mal's theory that both stamps - circled anchor and anchor with chevrons - were used at Tenshozan by the resident naval inspector.  As the blades with circled anchor stamps are undated, it is possible they were earlier than the blades with the chevroned anchor.  He may correct me on that, but I think that is what he said.

 

It is still possible that Tenshozan had it's own quality inspector using the chevroned anchor simultaneously with the Navy inspector using the circled anchor.

 

The chevroned anchor is specific to Tenshozan, while the circled anchor can be seen elsewhere.

[RobCarter3]

5 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

As the blades with circled anchor stamps are undated, it is possible they were earlier than the blades with the chevroned anchor. 

I’m not sure about if it’s an earlier thing because so many unsigned/undated blades with only the circled anchor are found in late Kai gunto mounts with the black pitch and other late features. 

 

This post suggests that the chevroned anchor and tenshozan mei were for swords to be sold through the tenshozan store, but the source link for that claim is dead. 

 

So many unknowns still out there on these stainless navy swords including (1) the formula(s) of the anti-rust alloys used, (2) how exactly they were made, and (3) how functional these blades were / how they fared in period testing. 

 

I’m aware of the existence of this document referenced by Nick Komiya, a 50-page report on low carbon nickel-chrome steel “bujin-toh” and wonder if it contains these answers. 

[Kiipu]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

with a coiled rope on the shaft,

 

Do you mean a fouled anchor?

Foul (nautical)

[mecox]

@RobCarter3   @Bruce Pennington   Rob re the Tenshozan anchor stamps the strong indication is that the general Navy acceptance stamp (anchor-in-circle) was used from early on, throughout the war and into the post-war souvenirs.   The Tenshozan stamp (anchor with chevrons/bars) had some dated blades which show it was used for a short time only 1938 to 1943 and on blades with "Tenshozan....."  mei.  So looks concurrent with other stamp for a while.

[Bruce Pennington]

19 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Do you mean a fouled anchor?

Foul (nautical)

Yes!  Forgot that term!  Dawson has some from Prison swords.  I thought the foul pattern might have significance, but apparently not.  Just variations of it.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is some stamp related info you may find interesting, though not related to swords. Note the comments on the origin of the Nagoya mark (you may already know this) and the comments on the Japanese not liking serial numbers over 5 digits (99,999) so they used katakana letters to denote new series.

 

http://www.nambuworld.com/t14markings.htm

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

11 minutes ago, John C said:

used katakana letters to denote new series.

That's cool, John!  It's the I Ro Ha series, same thing used by SMR for the Mantetsu serial numbers.  Nice to see other manufacturers using it, too.

[John C]

...again not sword related, however may be useful as a reference tool. A list of marks from various ordinances.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

We've seen the Heijo stamp on a blades.

[John C]

A bit repetitive, however another list of arsenal marks.

 

John C.