Arsenal Stamps.

[BANGBANGSAN]

16 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Trystan,

What sort of gunto was this in?  Also, what are your thoughts?  Do you think he's saying his art name is Inaba Kanenami, or is he saying he is Kanenami of Inaba (forge)?

I don't know if it was in Kai Gunto fitting, that's the only photo I saw. I think 兼波 works in 伊奈波鍛鍊場， like other smiths-兼利&兼立.

 

 

[Kiipu]

A souvenir sword and a Type 100.  Of note though is the nakago mune markings on the Type 100.

Your opinion on 2 Japanese swords

[Bruce Pennington]

21 hours ago, John C said:

an attempt at removal

John,

That is a classic attempt at obliterating, though half-hearted, the showa stamp using a peen hammer or punch.  Thanks for the added showa-stamped Kaneshige for the files!

[Bruce Pennington]

17 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

兼立

Thanks for those examples, Trystan.  I think you're right.  Seems unlikely all 3 of these guys had the first name "Inaba"!

 

How about an English translation of 兼立.  Can't find it in my sources and google translate calls it "Kanetsu".

[Bruce Pennington]

16 hours ago, Kiipu said:

A souvenir sword and a Type 100.  Of note though is the nakago mune markings on the Type 100.

Your opinion on 2 Japanese swords

Didn't have either of those, thanks Thomas!

 

What do you make of that last kanji?  "8161?"  At first, I thought it was "81NA1?" but on closer look, you can see a small stroke on the lower right of the 6.  But that last kanji stumps me.  I don't think it's a "MO" katakana.  Similar, but different.

 

Adding photos

 

And the souvenir nakago

[Bruce Pennington]

18 hours ago, Conway S said:

@Bruce Pennington Check out page 30 left hand side of the pdf shown above. There is a Hattori Masahiro mei without the polisher reference. I assume the sword in souvenir fittings I am referencing is a Hattori Masahiro sword. It has the Takayama-to short & thick kissaki.

 

***I don't want to take this great thread on arsenal stamps on too much of a diversion... Let me know if there is a more appropriate thread to move this discussion to. Thanks. 

 

Conway 

This one?

 

 

I'm sorry, a little swamped with multiple tasks at the moment and don't remember the topic - what were you wanting to say about this?

[BANGBANGSAN]

37 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Didn't have either of those, thanks Thomas!

 

What do you make of that last kanji?  "8161?"  At first, I thought it was "81NA1?" but on closer look, you can see a small stroke on the lower right of the 6.  But that last kanji stumps me.  I don't think it's a "MO" katakana.  Similar, but different.

 

Adding photos

 

And the souvenir nakago

 

Bruce

It's a 1945 Mumei Mantetsu,い一六一五。

[Bruce Pennington]

6 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

It's a 1945 Mumei Mantetsu,い一六一五。

BINGO!!!!  After a big zoom, I can see the faintly struck outer ( on the left side of what looked like an 8.  Good eye my friend!

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks for those examples, Trystan.  I think you're right.  Seems unlikely all 3 of these guys had the first name "Inaba"!

 

How about an English translation of 兼立.  Can't find it in my sources and google translate calls it "Kanetsu".

Bruce

I'm not sure, maybe Kaneritsu? Interestingly, the Chinese pronunciations for 利 (li), 力 (li), and 立 (li) are all 'Li'

[Kiipu]

1 hour ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

It's a 1945 Mumei Mantetsu, い一六一五.

 

Whoops!  I seem to have missed that fact.  I guess the pink slip is in the mail.

[Kiipu]

On 2/27/2020 at 7:58 AM, BANGBANGSAN said:

One more stamp for you, it's on the type 97 Kai Gunto.

 

Was the は stamped sword in postwar souvenir fittings?  I ask as it has a black painted 2-digit subassembly number.

[BANGBANGSAN]

8 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Was the は stamped sword in postwar souvenir fittings?  I ask as it has a black painted 2-digit subassembly number.

I couldn't found any other pictures of this sword, but from what I remember, it's in souvenir fittings。

 

 

[Kiipu]

On 9/26/2019 at 11:46 AM, BANGBANGSAN said:

力 mark on Kai gunto tang.

 

I found a second sword with this marking and it was posted by none other than Trystan!  See images 5367, 5368, and 5369.

Kai Gunto issued by IJN?

[Conway S]

Thomas, 

 

Here is another one I found recently on eBay. Tang and fittings all marked 941. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364162669768

 

Conway

 

 

 

[Conway S]

Here is a small encircled 力 on the drag of a Type 19 parade sword. 

 

Conway

 

[Bruce Pennington]

13 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

I found a second sword with this marking and it was posted by none other than Trystan!  See images 5367, 5368, and 5369.

Kai Gunto issued by IJN?

 

12 hours ago, Conway S said:

 

Here is another one I found recently on eBay. Tang and fittings all marked 941. 

Thanks for these.  Brings the total to 5 like this.

 

On another note, Thomas, these highlight my hesitation to include some of the blades you've discovered with 2-digit, black numbers in the souvenir file, having no fittings to confirm.  I've listed them, as you may be right, but as we see on these blades and some others I've just checked, there were active wartime kaigunto blades with black numbers too.  So far, I've only found them with 3 and 4 digit numbers, but that would imply that in previous years there were 2 digit numbers as well.  I haven't seen any, though, in kaigunto fittings.  

 

Interesting to see that these "Ka" stamped blades are all in late war kaigunto fittings.  Don't know what that says to us.

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, Conway S said:

Here is a small encircled 力 on the drag of a Type 19 parade sword. 

Good find, Conway.  I only have 1 other with that mark and it's on a police blade ricasso.

 

 

It is an unknown area of shops and inspector marks.  Here is a similar one with a "K" in circle

 

And another one with a "イ" in circle.

[Kiipu]

FYI, I used the heat marks on the tang that showed they had been shortened.  No heats marks, likely not a souvenir sword.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

heat marks

Oh, good point!  Glad I listed them all then.  Thanks!

[BANGBANGSAN]

14 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

I found a second sword with this marking and it was posted by none other than Trystan!  See images 5367, 5368, and 5369.

Kai Gunto issued by IJN?

I have several swords with this mark  in my files. I think the "カ" might be an abbreviation for "Kamakura," which is where the "天照山鍛鍊場" was located.

[Bruce Pennington]

Google translate gives me: “Amaterasu-san training ground”

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Google translate gives me: “Amaterasu-san training ground”

Both are one and the same.

[BANGBANGSAN]

18 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Google translate gives me: “Amaterasu-san training ground”

 

18 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Google translate gives me: “Amaterasu-san training ground”

天照山鍛鍊場=Tenshōzan Forge
鐮倉=Kamakura

[Bruce Pennington]

35 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

天照山鍛鍊場=Tenshōzan Forge

Thanks Trystan!  I was away from home and my files, and trying to read that on my phone.  I thought I recognized some of the Tenshozan kanji, but google threw me off.

 

And yes, using the "Ka" kana for Kamakura would line up with other examples, like where the Army used a katakana from the prefectures name.

 

So, of the 4 Toyokawa + (stamp), we have:

Inaba Forge                                            and               Kamakura, Tenshozan

                               

 

Now we need to figure out 

 

Ha                                                                     and          Kissing Ducks/mustache

               

[John C]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Kissing Ducks/mustache

Bruce:

This looks a bit like a stylized M over a "castle" shape. Are there any forges that begin with the letter M and are associated with a castle?

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

That's beyond my abilities.  Unleash the sleuth-hounds!!!

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 8/25/2023 at 9:12 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Kissing Ducks/mustache

            

Maybe the Nagoya City emblem？

 

[Bruce Pennington]

That has potential.  It made me think of an image if you take the right side and flip it over, to have 2 strokes, like the right side, facing each other.  What if it's a stylized hachi - 八 - ?

[BANGBANGSAN]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

That has potential.  It made me think of an image if you take the right side and flip it over, to have 2 strokes, like the right side, facing each other.  What if it's a stylized hachi - 八 - ?

The Nagoya city emblem, resolved in the city council's October 1907 (Meiji 40) meeting, originates from the "〇に八の字"（ Maruhachi） used as a joint seal by the Owari Tokugawa family. In the history of the Nagoya city council, it is explained that the circular emblem symbolizes boundless and harmonious expansion, with the inner "八" representing a supporting and expanding form, signifying growth through accumulated years. Additionally, the "八" is likened to the earth's feminine principle, signifying growth and progress, akin to the path of supporting a load, as well as raising sails with favorable winds. This emblem signifies Nagoya's continuous and peaceful development, poised for expansion, and in alignment with the winds of progress.

[Bruce Pennington]

I just checked the map and see that Nagoya was just north of the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal, and the Inaba shrine/forge was just north of Nagoya, so they make sense.  It looks like Kamakura was quite a bit east of Toyokawa, and quite close to Tokyo.  So, Inaba forge and "Nagoya" make sense, but Kamakura doesn't seem to fit well.